Does Bitwig seem like a daw that very few people want? Kind of a rant I guess.

[stoopicus]

Well, Bitwig is more about modulation than traditional automation, and it is top dog there. Different approach. Definitely less standard though sure.

Sorry but this is just starting to sound like an excuse and people apologizing for why Bitwig can't do something as basic as ripple editing and block automation in 2025. I don't need to hear about modulation anymore. Great that Bitwig does that but a modern DAW that can't edit and arrange properly imo doesn't have its priorities straight no matter what their supposed focus is.

So, FTR, I am not making excuses for the arranger in Bitwig. In fact if you scroll up a bit you'll see where I post that I love Bitwig but prefer working in Reaper and Logic Pro if I am recording and editing instrument audio tracks, because their arrangers are better.

What I *was* pointing out is that I actually appreciate that Bitwig takes a different approach here, even if I wish it were better in some areas. If all the DAWs had exactly the same methodology or approach the only point in owning more than one DAW would be if you needed to support clients sending you projects for them.

Meanwhile I do think Bitwig DOES need to improve the piano roll. If they are leaning in to being the best DAW for sound design and electronic music composition, they also need to have the best MIDI editor. This is just an obvious gap.

[apoclypse]

Well, Bitwig is more about modulation than traditional automation, and it is top dog there. Different approach. Definitely less standard though sure.

Sorry but this is just starting to sound like an excuse and people apologizing for why Bitwig can't do something as basic as ripple editing and block automation in 2025. I don't need to hear about modulation anymore. Great that Bitwig does that but a modern DAW that can't edit and arrange properly imo doesn't have its priorities straight no matter what their supposed focus is.

So, FTR, I am not making excuses for the arranger in Bitwig. In fact if you scroll up a bit you'll see where I post that I love Bitwig but prefer working in Reaper and Logic Pro if I am recording and editing instrument audio tracks, because their arrangers are better.

What I *was* pointing out is that I actually appreciate that Bitwig takes a different approach here, even if I wish it were better in some areas. If all the DAWs had exactly the same methodology or approach the only point in owning more than one DAW would be if you needed to support clients sending you projects for them.

Meanwhile I do think Bitwig DOES need to improve the piano roll. If they are leaning in to being the best DAW for sound design and electronic music composition, they also need to have the best MIDI editor. This is just an obvious gap.

They don't have to be Logic, Studio One or even Ableton for that matter. I don't need Bitwig to be protools, I don't need the most amazing audio tools, or mix snapshots etc. I just want them to finish what they started. Its the same with Drum Machine, choke groups are confusing and broken, but Bitwig has not touched that device in years.

If their methodology is to abandon core features of the DAW to sell more devices as upgrades, I don't consider that a particularly good methodology.

What I liked about Bitwig in the first place was how they implemented core features in interesting ways. The Spread feature is not like any other DAW, it has a histogram, you can add chaos, change the mean. Very slick stuff. The way they implemented probability, ratcheting. fills etc in the PR is very innovative. The fact it works with audio as well, again an interesting way to implement a core feature. But they don't do that with other core features. I'm not asking them to be like other DAWs, they have a lot of room to do things their own way, but just letting the basics stagnate is an issue imo.

[machinesworking]

Bitwig is eleven years old. Ableton was 11 years old in 2012 and was missing a lot more stuff than Bitwig is now.

Max4Live was introduced a bit earlier than 2012. So I don't think you can compare them and truthfully say that.

It was introduced 2009 iirc but it was not entirely developed by Ableton. The origin of Max, believe it or not, dates back to the 80' and only at the end of the 90' Cycling '74 acquired the rights to continue its development. So a big chunk of what makes Max for live doesn't come from Ableton but was allready in place.

Plenty of developments in DAWs are code that's licensed or introduced. Max is indeed a Cycling 74 product that has a long origin dating back to the early 80's, but it's development into Live was there in 2012. Your point was and is moot. DAWs all have strengths and weaknesses, (for instance Jitter and movie hosting was already in Live at that point), the amount of features Live had in 2012 was impressive, especially when they rolled Max into it.

[pdxindy]

Ripple editing is another big issue for me.

The ripple editing is only partly implemented. For example, you can ripple duplicate and ripple cut, but ripple paste doesn't work. There is a shortcut for it but it does nothing.

I've reported it as a bug. Please do the same.

Yes. That's why I said its broken. I recall a certain banned user reporting this issue *checks calendar* five years ago. I reported this then as well. The fact that its still broken is a huge issue imo and ispart of why I keep point at these issues as being inexcusable in 2025. That's a very long time for a supposed bug to just linger with absolutely nothing from developers.

Continuing to point to the issue in a place the developers don't see is unlikely to lead to ripple paste being addressed. Of course, say whatever you want here, but please email them as well... more than once. That way we are more likely to get a fix.

[stoopicus]

I mean, Ableton (and Bitwig) didn't even support Comping until 2021.

Recording audio has never been a primary focus of either.

[tumface]

They're both actually really good at recording bar-aligned loops for re-use as loops. They are both indeed bad at dealing with long unique sections of recorded audio in an arrangement.

[stoopicus]

Yep that sums it up

[apoclypse]

Ripple editing is another big issue for me.

The ripple editing is only partly implemented. For example, you can ripple duplicate and ripple cut, but ripple paste doesn't work. There is a shortcut for it but it does nothing.

I've reported it as a bug. Please do the same.

Yes. That's why I said its broken. I recall a certain banned user reporting this issue *checks calendar* five years ago. I reported this then as well. The fact that its still broken is a huge issue imo and ispart of why I keep point at these issues as being inexcusable in 2025. That's a very long time for a supposed bug to just linger with absolutely nothing from developers.

Continuing to point to the issue in a place the developers don't see is unlikely to lead to ripple paste being addressed. Of course, say whatever you want here, but please email them as well... more than once. That way we are more likely to get a fix.

I was just responding to your comment. I’ve given up reaching out the devs long ago. They don’t seem interested.

[apoclypse]

Bitwig is eleven years old. Ableton was 11 years old in 2012 and was missing a lot more stuff than Bitwig is now.

Max4Live was introduced a bit earlier than 2012. So I don't think you can compare them and truthfully say that.

It was introduced 2009 iirc but it was not entirely developed by Ableton. The origin of Max, believe it or not, dates back to the 80' and only at the end of the 90' Cycling '74 acquired the rights to continue its development. So a big chunk of what makes Max for live doesn't come from Ableton but was allready in place.

Plenty of developments in DAWs are code that's licensed or introduced. Max is indeed a Cycling 74 product that has a long origin dating back to the early 80's, but it's development into Live was there in 2012. Your point was and is moot. DAWs all have strengths and weaknesses, (for instance Jitter and movie hosting was already in Live at that point), the amount of features Live had in 2012 was impressive, especially when they rolled Max into it.

Didn’t Ableton Live itself start life as a Max patch? I think they did the initial prototype and design there. It’s why Ableton and Cycling have had a really close relationship and it made total sense when Ableton bought Cycling ‘74 to me.

[ghettosynth]

Bitwig is eleven years old. Ableton was 11 years old in 2012 and was missing a lot more stuff than Bitwig is now.

Max4Live was introduced a bit earlier than 2012. So I don't think you can compare them and truthfully say that.

It was introduced 2009 iirc but it was not entirely developed by Ableton. The origin of Max, believe it or not, dates back to the 80' and only at the end of the 90' Cycling '74 acquired the rights to continue its development. So a big chunk of what makes Max for live doesn't come from Ableton but was allready in place.

Plenty of developments in DAWs are code that's licensed or introduced. Max is indeed a Cycling 74 product that has a long origin dating back to the early 80's, but it's development into Live was there in 2012. Your point was and is moot. DAWs all have strengths and weaknesses, (for instance Jitter and movie hosting was already in Live at that point), the amount of features Live had in 2012 was impressive, especially when they rolled Max into it.

Didn’t Ableton Live itself start life as a Max patch? I think they did the initial prototype and design there. It’s why Ableton and Cycling have had a really close relationship and it made total sense when Ableton bought Cycling ‘74 to me.

Sort of. The ideas from Ableton partly came from a Max patch that Monolake used to play live. This was in the Opcode days. But, David Zicarelli, who was the lead dev at Opcode formed Cycling 74 in the late 90s after Gibson bought Opcode, which closed its doors in 1999.

[jules99]

Since we don't have any reliable data on DAW market share, we can only assume by the number of tutorials, sales ranks at retailers, number of clicks in forums, etc. But by these metrics, Bitwig is still kind of niche compared to Ableton, Logic or Pro Tools.

On the other hand, if you ask around in modular synth circles, it is by far the most popular DAW. So, depends on who you ask. But most importantly, depends on what you want to do with it. If you're a more traditional songwriter, Bitwig's modular approach might be as off-putting as it could be inspiring.

OP seems like the kind of person, who on a whim, buys a DAW license, because someone somewhere on some forum post said it's a great DAW and then is utterly disappointed that it does not run on their ancient computer. And, of course, needs to tell the world about it.

Which sparks a forum thread rehashing the same old DAW wars arguments.

[lb24569]

Wait for Bitwig 6 to drop, which should be just around the corner. It's a highly anticipated update that promises major overhauls to the piano roll and arranger, bringing them up to par with other leading DAWs. Once Bitwig catches up in these key areas, I expect it will attract a much wider audience.

[koalaboy]

OP bought bitwig, from what I can see, because it has rent-to-own on splice, and therefore was the cheapest.

That's obviously not the reason you should buy anything, and it's clear that buyers remorse has set in fully.

All DAWs have their quirks, and they all cater differently to different people.

Why are we still going in this loop ?

[whyterabbyt]

Why are we still going in this loop ?

welcome to KVR, newcomer.

[pdxindy]

It's a highly anticipated update that promises major overhauls to the piano roll and arranger, bringing them up to par with other leading DAWs.

You're overstating what they said:

"We're working on some fundamental workflow improvements to how you work on the Arranger and in the piano roll."