Record: New DAW from Propellerheads

[blank/diod]

Feature Request.

I like some of your alternatives though

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. D'oh.

I totally want Floyd Rose tremolo on Reason now, though. Forget pitch bend wheels, I want a real spring-loaded metal thingy.

[zion7]

Just to note though, I never missed or needed a freeze function in Reason because the devices are all so CPU efficient. This is one of the really BIG contrasts between using Reason and (for example) Live, where even its own instruments are huge CPU hogs.
:

See this is misleading. Because if you want to really compare, Subtractor for example only has 2 oscillators. If you want to match the big sound of a VST, you would need to layer 24 Subtractors to get 48 oscillators playing. Which is what one instance of a synth like Z3ta does with its many oscillators X the multipliers built in. When you start really layering and trying to get a huge sound in Reason, you DO start running out of CPU power depending on your PC. I mean, you can't have both worlds. With CPU efficiency comes lack of power.

Also, on my new DAW thats Quadcore, I am running about 30 VST instruments and I am maxing out at like 15% CPU power. So these days, spending a few hundred to upgrade your Motherboard, RAM, and CPU, you can turn a DAW like Cubase or Logic into a monster and run insane number of VSTs. I don't think your argument is a selling point anymore.

[Snofokk]

Not an argument? Reason is incredibly CPU efficient, the only synth that can compare is Helix. Saying that Subtractor is not the same as VST, clearly shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you heard of Thor?

Most people do not use the latest quad core stationary computer, so it is still a selling point, but thanks for showing off.

[zion7]

Not an argument? Reason is incredibly CPU efficient, the only synth that can compare is Helix. Saying that Subtractor is not the same as VST, clearly shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you heard of Thor?

Most people do not use the latest quad core stationary computer, so it is still a selling point, but thanks for showing off.

you clearly didnt read my post. or comprehend what I was saying. When I was on Reason, I needed 20 subtractor clones to play one synth sound to get a HUGE sound. Thor is obviously much better but uses MUCH MORE cpu than Subtractor. Start layering Thors and stack on some reverbs and your CPU usage will start catching up even in Reason. Then, you have to rig a complex set of tools in Reason to create an FX chain that a small simple VST FX could have given you. I would max out my PC all the time even with Reason by the time my project was built up.

And I am not showing off about my Quad. It cost me only $400 to upgrade. Thats not a lot of money to get the power to use virtually unlimited VSTs. If you can afford $650 for Reason + Record, surely $400 won't break your bank

[blank/diod]

Also, on my new DAW thats Quadcore, I am running about 30 VST instruments and I am maxing out at like 15% CPU power. So these days, spending a few hundred to upgrade your Motherboard, RAM, and CPU, you can turn a DAW like Cubase or Logic into a monster and run insane number of VSTs. I don't think your argument is a selling point anymore.

Umm... two words: Lap. Top.

Even if you get the latest MacBook Pro (or an iMac for that matter), or even a quad-beast like Dell Precision m6400 Covet (the kind of "laptop" that gives you a hernia if you carry it for more than 50 yards), you only get a fraction of the power of a Nehalem quad or octad, slower bus, slower RAM. Not all musicians are basement dwellers tethered to a tower workstation.

[mellotronaut]

Also, on my new DAW thats Quadcore, I am running about 30 VST instruments and I am maxing out at like 15% CPU power. So these days, spending a few hundred to upgrade your Motherboard, RAM, and CPU, you can turn a DAW like Cubase or Logic into a monster and run insane number of VSTs. I don't think your argument is a selling point anymore.

Umm... two words: Lap. Top.

Even if you get the latest MacBook Pro (or an iMac for that matter), or even a quad-beast like Dell Precision m6400 Covet (the kind of "laptop" that gives you a hernia if you carry it for more than 50 yards), you only get a fraction of the power of a Nehalem quad or octad, slower bus, slower RAM. Not all musicians are basement dwellers tethered to a tower workstation.

no no, this zion7 is directly connected to his vstis: let a Subtractor safe him from the eternal Malstroem in the name of Thor!

[zion7]

Also, on my new DAW thats Quadcore, I am running about 30 VST instruments and I am maxing out at like 15% CPU power. So these days, spending a few hundred to upgrade your Motherboard, RAM, and CPU, you can turn a DAW like Cubase or Logic into a monster and run insane number of VSTs. I don't think your argument is a selling point anymore.

Umm... two words: Lap. Top.

Even if you get the latest MacBook Pro (or an iMac for that matter), or even a quad-beast like Dell Precision m6400 Covet (the kind of "laptop" that gives you a hernia if you carry it for more than 50 yards), you only get a fraction of the power of a Nehalem quad or octad, slower bus, slower RAM. Not all musicians are basement dwellers tethered to a tower workstation.

my friends are running the latest Macbook Pro as their DAW with absolutely no problems in the VST world. My quad, also, is the most basic entry level quad. Its not that fast. Its not i7. Any type of multi-core significantly raises what you can do as the CPs have caught up to the programs finally it seems. My computer would have been cutting edge 2 yrs ago, it was a cheapo buy. Yet I max out my projects at 15% while my previous PC I would max out at 100% with half the VSTs.

So, no, don't have to be a basement dweller. Many options today to run many vsts imo

[blank/diod]

See this is misleading. Because if you want to really compare, Subtractor for example only has 2 oscillators. If you want to match the big sound of a VST, you would need to layer 24 Subtractors to get 48 oscillators playing. Which is what one instance of a synth like Z3ta does with its many oscillators X the multipliers built in. When you start really layering and trying to get a huge sound in Reason, you DO start running out of CPU power depending on your PC. I mean, you can't have both worlds. With CPU efficiency comes lack of power.

It's nowhere near as simple as that. With many VST/VSTi instances comes much redundant processing that's done in a single place in Reason. I can use hundreds of Reason devices on my ageing E6700, whereas with VST I'm lucky to get to 15-20 even if I stick to the basic ones such as the plugs included with Cubase (e.g. HalionOne, Groove Agent One, Monologue, Embracer etc). A few years ago I tried out Reaktor on my old Pentium 4 and it used up more CPU cycles *idling* than Reason did with dozens of devices playing at full blast.

[zion7]

See this is misleading. Because if you want to really compare, Subtractor for example only has 2 oscillators. If you want to match the big sound of a VST, you would need to layer 24 Subtractors to get 48 oscillators playing. Which is what one instance of a synth like Z3ta does with its many oscillators X the multipliers built in. When you start really layering and trying to get a huge sound in Reason, you DO start running out of CPU power depending on your PC. I mean, you can't have both worlds. With CPU efficiency comes lack of power.

It's nowhere near as simple as that. With many VST/VSTi instances comes much redundant processing that's done in a single place in Reason. I can use hundreds of Reason devices on my ageing E6700, whereas with VST I'm lucky to get to 15-20 even if I stick to the basic ones such as the plugs included with Cubase (e.g. HalionOne, Groove Agent One, Monologue, Embracer etc). A few years ago I tried out Reaktor on my old Pentium 4 and it used up more CPU cycles *idling* than Reason did with dozens of devices playing at full blast.

I am not arguing that Reason isn't the most efficient program. From my experience, it was and its prob because of the fact that its a closed system. My point was simply that for my projects to even come close to competing with professional music out there, I would have to layer an insane number of synths and FX and eventually even the efficient Reason would max out my pc also. And my 2nd point was that with an upgrade to a Quad, you can now run an insane amount of VSTs. Not hundreds but a HUGE amount. And lets be honest, given their power, who the hell needs 100 VSTs in a single project? 20 is plenty. Since each good VST has so many oscillators and multipliers, you don't need to layer like you do in Reason. Why do you need 100s? Thats silly.

[blank/diod]

Props have apparently launched a "Record blog" today. It only features a kind of foreword by Ernst right now but I'm sure it will grow, give some insights and answer questions down the line...

http://www.propellerheads.de/company/cr ... lan&PID=18

[Download SOphist]

thanks for the link, b/d.

[blank/diod]

I am not arguing that Reason isn't the most efficient program. From my experience, it was and its prob because of the fact that its a closed system. My point was simply that for my projects to even come close to competing with professional music out there, I would have to layer an insane number of synths and FX and eventually even the efficient Reason would max out my pc also. And my 2nd point was that with an upgrade to a Quad, you can now run an insane amount of VSTs. Not hundreds but a HUGE amount. And lets be honest, given their power, who the hell needs 100 VSTs in a single project? 20 is plenty. Since each good VST has so many oscillators and multipliers, you don't need to layer like you do in Reason. Why do you need 100s? Thats silly.

I agree that machine count is a rather silly way to measure CPU efficiency, but let's put it this way: In terms of fullness and complexity of an arrangement, I would argue that Reason gives more bang-for-CPU than (insert VST host here)+VST plugs playing a near-identical arrangement. And while it's unlikely that I want hundreds of synths playing simultaneously, it's nice to have the kind of creative headroom where I never have to think about maxing out the CPU, and that I can get a wall of sound so thick it borders on white noise without Reason ever buckling under the weight, if for some mysterious reason I'd want to produce something like that.

When I made the music for this trailer I thought it would be a cool idea to use nothing but Thor, but due to the fact that I'd have to use it for drums as well as numerous FX boings and zings that would only appear once each I thought it would be doomed to fail, as I would need something like 40-50 Thors running simultaneously. Plus, my computer was getting old even back then (I'm getting a Mac Pro in June, working on this old thing is getting ridiculous). Not to mention that I only had one night to do it, because 10 PM the night before the release day I had just completed the graphics so there was no room for failed experiments. But as it turned out, it wasn't an issue at all and I was able to go to bed at 6 AM the next morning.

Right now I'm doing a similar thing in Cubase and find myself having to disable or freeze some VSTs and shut off some FX until the time comes to render out a stereo mix. Hopefully there'll be no more of that when I get a Mac Pro, but I'm pretty p!$$3D at the moment. What's that they say about Macs again? "They just work". IMO the same holds true for Reason, in fact moreso than for Macs because I've seen quite a few Mac crashes in my day...

[zion7]

blank: you make the Props promo songs?? that is pretty cool if you do. Any non-US sites are blocked at work so I can't check it right now unfortunately.
BTW, I remem your alias on Reasonstation now. I thought it sounded familiar.

[blank/diod]

blank: you make the Props promo songs?? that is pretty cool if you do. Any non-US sites are blocked at work so I can't check it right now unfortunately.
BTW, I remem your alias on Reasonstation now. I thought it sounded familiar.

Thanks. Yeah, I run my own one-man company and work as an external dude for Props when they need Flash promos. I do the same for a couple of other companies, IK Multimedia and Toontrack.

I worked at Props HQ back in the ReBirth days (96-98 ) and I still do stuff for them sometimes, I wrote some of their "Discovering Reason" tutorial articles and did some bit parts of application graphics, though I don't work "there". I'm in a different city and do my work at home and mail or upload it. The IK guys I've never met, only saw them in some blurry photos. Ahh, cyberspace.

[Sascha Franck]

Presumably the Line 6 stuff gets updated, and the Record versions will follow suit?

The Line 6 stuff hasn't been updated in ages, at least not regarding certain basic amp models. They were pretty much king of the amp modeling business just 1-2 years ago, these days only Logics onboard Guitar Amp "Pro" is doing worse. Licensing Line 6's stuff for Record IMO was a pretty bad decision. Sure, it's fine to get it thrown in more or less for free, but it's just not a serious competition to AT, GR, TH1 and ReValver. For me, being on the road like 100-200 days a year, having a proper virtual guitar amp (I do of course have several options of using real hardware at home) is a must (ok, I lived happily without any until some years ago, but that's how times are changing). Licensing something such as a (probably feature reduced) version of Overlouds TH1 would've been the best idea IMO, especially as TH1 is by far the most CPU efficient of the whole bunch, which would've been pretty much in line with Reasons general "paradigm". Not to forget that it sounds absolutely excellent and comes with its own IR loading cab module.

- Sascha