An alternative to Logic

[beej]

anyway, go ahead and argue in favour of sucky audio editing. that would make my day

Well we could argue about which improvements they need to make to the audio editing *first*... although, I'm not sure it would be much of an argument...

oh and btw of course the list would not have to be crossplatform, when we compare it to something where even the host isnt crossplatform.

Again, depends on how you wanna look at it. I can open up my Logic songs on Logic on the PC, and also open them in Logic on the Mac (and I do, often, in fact), so there is still a crossplatform case to be made, even if ol' Logic PC is commercially forgotten. (Actually, I find Logic quite ugly and uncomfortable below version 7 now, I'm so used to the Apple overhaul and new features. No buss PDC for mixing and a UAD card - does my head in...)

And plenty of people still use LPC on the PC though, albeit a lot of them without an XSkey... (better just add plenty of smilies there...(!))

[derek]

sascha - the leslie is not called leslie for - i guess, license reasons? look for "rotary". put a noise gate behind it though, like the sampletank one the emulation to my taste goes a bit too far by not stopping the "dirt floor" when you dont play anything. i recommend the floorfish for this task - smoooooth expansion, a real killer plugin ;-)

plugin lists - as i said, if you dont get my point by now, you probably dont want to (wouldnt come as a surprise ;-) and thats fine with me then. i talked about the exs, which indeed cannot be replaced by freeware 2 pages ago or so (my supposed statement that absolutely everything can be killed without any exception is of course just an overblown extreme interpretation of what i initially said, (c) by some who need that so they can argue against it more easily...dont feel like reacting to schopenhauer rhetorics right now ;-)

omf - see above.


@beej: how dare you make comments about the samplitude plugs when you dont know them! how dare you make comments about the samplitude plugs when you dont know them! how dare you make comments about the samplitude plugs when you dont know them!

;-)

[beej]

Hehe - now piss off!

[derek]

beej - i had a feeling youd count logic pc...well, suffice it to say that this 5 (6?) year old cripple thats buggy as hell, thats only half compatible to xp (which itself is already 5 years old) and zero compatible to many newer plugins (including quite a few of the logic plugins mentioned in this thread, if im not mistaken) doesnt really count in my opinion.


anyway, cant write in this thread all day - my point stands, the plugin argument isnt what it used to be, that should be obvious to anyone who has clicked on the quicklink section only to find hundreds and thousands of plugins, many of them being incredibly good and often better than many commercial alternatives.

to what degree, that lies in the eye of the beholder, as this thread clearly demonstrates :-) fair enough :-) never said the fish fillets are up there with the uad (which i love btw). the samplitude stuff is. and the blockfish sometimes is too, but not always. way better than logics compression, though, in MY opinion.

*ducks as he sees another round of namecalling coming his way* ;-)

[derek]

(stupid crossposting, this a chatroom or what :-)

yeah, you have a nice day too :-)

[beej]

beej - i had a feeling youd count logic pc...

Well, if we're trying to replace the current Logic Mac with freebies, then presumably your plugins would have to be Mac ones, in which case, there's even less freebie choices than the PC side, so I imagine it would be harder to achieve.

Plus there's all the weirder Logic stuff like Enhance Timing, Vocal Transform, Spectral Gate and many others that's also harder to find something that does the same.

In any case, you've made you point, and agreed that your initial words were over exxagerated and not completely correct, and we've all agreed that you can compromise and probably be fairly happy, so I think the threads kinda coming to a conclusion (at last)...

[grymmjack]

So i have come to understand that logic 7 is the industry standard, also that it is only now available on Mac. Not willing to shell out for a machine that will be mostly useless to me i am looking for an alternative to Logic, or what i would lose by getting an older version that is PC friendly (if possable at all).

industry standard for which industry? did you consult 'the board of industry standards' or something to draw this conclusion?

[derek]

Well, if we're trying to replace the current Logic Mac with freebies, then presumably your plugins would have to be Mac ones, in which case, there's even less freebie choices than the PC side, so I imagine it would be harder to achieve.

i know theres a lot less freeware out there for mac. yet, the opposite is the case - the thread starter explicitly asked for a pc alternative, with the goal to avoid buying a mac. so i guess pc plugins should do just fine.

Plus there's all the weirder Logic stuff like Enhance Timing, Vocal Transform, Spectral Gate and many others that's also harder to find something that does the same.

oh yes, thats all absolutely essential stuff there. cant live without it. about as essential as synth edit plugins (nothing against a good synth edit plugin every now and then)

In any case, you've made you point, and agreed that your initial words were over exxagerated and not completely correct

wow, some serious spin there. nice try, but no, thats not what i sad. my opinion remains unchanged, and the fact that im too lazy and not nice and masochistic enough to compile lists in response to some hate posts doesnt change that in any way either. all i have acknowledged is that logic fans will strongly disagree with my opinion, but then, that one was clear before i even started posting. that i tried to write a version even the fanboy club would be able to agree on seems to have been a mistake in retrospect, considering the way you try to misinterpret it here.

whatever :-)

[Elakhna]

i am looking for an alternative to Logic

BABYA LOGIC!!

[beej]

oh yes, thats all absolutely essential stuff there. cant live without it.

Ok, well you're just trying to take the opposing arguments just for the sake of it now. I was simply making a point that there are Logic plugins that aren't easy to directly replace. I've already said you've accepted that if you willing to compromise, you could more or less be happy, which doesn't mean you can replace *everything* directly, which was the point of your initial post, if I recall.. Including the, as I said, "weirder stuff". And yes, some people might well find them essential, even if you or I don't.

In any case, you've made you point, and agreed that your initial words were over exxagerated and not completely correct

wow, some serious spin there.

Well that's what I read this as being:

my supposed statement that absolutely everything can be killed without any exception is of course just an overblown extreme interpretation of what i initially said

In any case, you seem to just wanna argue. A debate and a light hearted discussion is one thing, but if you just wanna find the extreme opposite side to anything I say just to argue your point that I already half agree with, and I start to get bored rather quickly.

This is obviously the right room for an argument. So I'm gonna go find another room.

[brok landers]

wow ... again a fight thread about hosts ...
well, i think that 2 things comes out pretty clear:

1. most of all ext lacks of a comprehensive manual
2. users of any host are often work rapidly different

which leads me to the conclusion:
1. that many users try to find out the functions of xt based on the workflow of their previous mainsequencer
2. they're not aware/don't even imagine what ext is capable off, as there is no other host that provides features that make xt so unique, which
3. makes the way one was used to work to achieve a similar goal simply redudant (for some tasks at least)
4. this thread shows clearly that ext lacks of a certain workflow that one is used to, based on previous way of working.


conclusion:

1. xt is great
2. the users that worked with other mature hosts go nuts, as a lot of things are different in xt
3. xt lacks of the implementation of possibilities to work exactly like in traditional hosts IN ADDITION, to be complete.
4. it is questionable to implement all equal features that other hosts have in a completely different way, as there's nothing wrong to actually use the practical experiance from other hosts, which have prooven to be good allready.
5. there is a hughe inquire for a follow up of logic's workflow, that still is not forfilled by any other host (hi, jens, i'm back again )
6. xt is very close, closer that any other host, thus threads like thisone come up again and again.

the basic problem is the modularity, which is there functionality-wise, but when it comes to the speed-workflow of logic, there's a lack of some very basic functions in ext (no linked editors, no multiple openable, fully customisable track mixer, no editable, seperate and global list editor, a too basic and sometimes very unsatisfying audio editor, no screen layout-saving, etc, etc).
now, what good is a feature that corrupts your workflow, plus missing basic functions/views (no constantly visual clip/track properties?
xt has a hughe ammout of unique, great features, but the way to achieve them in xt is just questionable

it's good to develop something unique, but one has to think over twice, if the uniqueness sometimes rather rapidly stops creativity, than it would, if the features (at least the basics) would've been implemented the way one was allready used to, based on other sequencers/hosts.

f.e., who said, that the timeline of a sequencer _has_ to go from left to right?
noone.

we're just used to it, since the first timelined sequencer was out, and mostly every fllowed up sequencer company did it the same, simply because it was PROOVED TO BE GOOD.
why not implementing the handling of the features that are similar in ext, compared to any other host, simply the same way as it is done in most other hosts (at least fairly close)?
we are used to that allready, and it eases up the learnig curve a lot, especially as there is still no comprehensive manual.
the tutorials are great (thanks for all the work on this, guys), but not too much of help, as the one, who did the tutorial, just describes his way of working with ext, and from that view he describes the features ...

finally i must say, allthough i don't agree with ttoz when he says "ext is crap", i really do understand him in a lot of points ...
if he misses something, then it's not his fault, as he cannot know, and if you are living from making music (like f.e. i do), you simply cannot afford the time for that hughe learnig curve ...

xt is great with all it's modularity.
what it needs now, to be a hopeforfiller for many of us out there, is, the basic, traditional sequencer/workflow makeup. that, in addition to it's modularity allows _everyone_ to work in his personal way.

as far as i can see, jorgen is heavily on xt in _exactly_ these terms, so let's wait and see ...
if xt2 is out we'll see if the complaining will come to an end.
we have to bear in mind that ext _never_ was a finished product, it _allways_ has been a work in progress ... just my 3million cents ...



btw, bones, did you ever take a closer look on logic? i'm just asking, because you recommend orion platinum as a replacement, which is, if i'm not completeley mistaken, a patternbased host?

[original flipper]

HI

It is interesting that you say XT needs the "traditional sequencer/workflow makeup" - I remember saying this BEFORE I really knew anything about XT and 'Jens' almost had a heart attack!!!

What I now feel is that XT should come 'PREWIRED' and set-up for a taditional workflow AS WELL AS in it's current blank canvas state.

MORE IMPORTANTLY XT needs a REAL BASIC newbie manual:

1) how to wire up a VSTI
2) how to throw an effect in
3) how to automate the filter on that VSTI

I hope that this is the case for V2.

Once you get to know XT is losses the mystique (obviously) - yet it is a bit worrying to see how difficult it can be for new users to get into; Podium is a good example of another host that I have struggled with; XT is not unique - hell I couldn't get nowhere with Sonar!

Shouting used for theatrical purposes.

Flipper.

[DHR53]

I have XT and set up a couple basic templates with it, but I never actually created any songs... Seemed to me that a basic configuration (like a traditional sequencer) that could be loaded right off the bat would go a long way towards making it more accessible to the "uninformed"... It's really cool in what it can do as far as modularity... but for the person who just wants to crank out some tunes quickly, you have to have some kind of template ready to go with mixers, and instrument channels etc. MHO of course...

[jens]

1. most of all ext lacks of a comprehensive manual

I've heard some rumours that this will change with XT2...

[jens]

It is interesting that you say XT needs the "traditional sequencer/workflow makeup" - I remember saying this BEFORE I really knew anything about XT and 'Jens' almost had a heart attack!!!

hehe...