Why does swing sound so "good" ?

[JumpingJackFlash]

I don't know what happened to the thread, since it was in Everything Else... I'll try to track it down.

Try this thread, somewhere between pages 12-19 I would guess, although just glancing through some of the posts there (ah, happy days), you might not want to draw attention to them again. - I'm pretty sure that's the thread you're referring to, and we seem to be having the exact same arguments all over again!

That's my obscure reference for the day

[rp314]

It's simple: tension/release. Oldest trick in the book. It's not about the early or late beat, it's about the hit that's right on that makes it all OK.

that's about the biggest oversimplification I've ever read

You're kinda new around these parts, huh?

[JumpingJackFlash]

I come from a background where what is written is an exact description of what is played, not a rough guide. I realize that when 'jobbing' one will do the sorts of things you described when playing standards. Why not? But if one is playing something written by Bartok or Nancarrow or Bach or Birtwistle or Mozart or Penderecki or Webern or Walton or Stravinsky or whoever, one is expected to play EXACTLY what is written. (unless you want to get fired ). There is interpretation involved, but within much smaller confines than the ones you are describing.

Tiny nitpick; this is not true in all cases. Take Bach for example, in much of his music the performer is expected to do a great deal of interpretation; ornamentation, even improvisation of sorts. (Although Bach (J.S.) was much more precise with notation than some other composers of the time).

[Toxikator]

JJF, that's EXACTLY it.

Here's the quote:

Try your "perfect" swing on 8ths at tempi above, say, 200 (which isn't anything rare for swing and bebop). It will just sound lousy and rushed. If you were performing with "perfect" swing in a jazz band on a faster tune, it'd be your first and last gig, period.
What nuffink said is *absolutely* true. On lower tempi, swing might even mean the last 8th triplet to fall closer to the 4th 16th whereas on faster tempi it's almost exactly an 8th.

And here's from page 7:

Offbeats are delayed by an amount the parttaking musicians agree to, an "ideal" swing would have a ratio of 2:1. There's nothing more to add to the basic definition.

Trade "perfect" with "ideal" (I think that's fair) and it's a pretty hypocritical statement.

EDIT: wait, no I see. You weren't saying that there wasn't an "ideal" swing, just that it doesn't always make sense to hold to that ideal.

I guess they're not really all that contradictory.

[Sascha Franck]

Toxikator: They're not contradictory at all. I even almost repeated what I said in the old thread in my first post in this one. The basic definition of swing and its interpretion are just totally different things.

herodotus: I hope I'll remember to reply to your last post tomorrow. Too tired right now.

[Toxikator]

Toxikator: They're not contradictory at all. I even almost repeated what I said in the old thread in my first post in this one. The basic definition of swing and its interpretion are just totally different things.

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry for calling you out, I was completely incorrect on this one.

[Ubiety]

So I will bow out of this conversation that I never would have really gotten into in the first place, had nuffink not accused me in a veiled fashion of being a 'bitter old muso unwilling or incapable of passing on whatever small amount of knowledge they've gleaned over the years'.

I really must learn to stop letting him draw me out.

That's both a bit disingenuous (you were already active in the thread) and a bit sensitive. The barb wasn't veiled or aimed at you. You weren't the one getting all mystic meg over the magic of Tony Williams.

Yeah, all one has to do is get his doctor to prescribe him a bottle of Nuffink's Delayed Eighth Notes to sort out his swing.

[Sascha Franck]

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry for calling you out, I was completely incorrect on this one.

No problem. Happens.

[nuffink]

Yeah, all one has to do is get his doctor to prescribe him a bottle of Nuffink's Delayed Eighth Notes to sort out his swing.

Terrific comeback Ubiety. You've covered yourself in glory in this thread by your staunch defence of "true" swing*. And now you're a hilarious flame warrier too.

Is there no end to your talents?

*Aided by some solid support from the peanut gallery by BosseJo who sadly had to leave when the game started slipping away.

[BosseJo]

Yeah, all one has to do is get his doctor to prescribe him a bottle of Nuffink's Delayed Eighth Notes to sort out his swing.

Terrific comeback Ubiety. You've covered yourself in glory in this thread by your staunch defence of "true" swing*. And now you're a hilarious flame warrier too.

Is there no end to your talents?

*Aided by some solid support from the peanut gallery by BosseJo who sadly had to leave when the game started slipping away.

Yea you are right, I had to leave...You floored us with your deep understanding of swing. Perhaps you could write some contrived software like Swingplaya - push the button and swingeliswing!

You can ask Sabbatella himself about swing here:
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz

He's been posting there on and off for years. I'm sure he can help you sort things out.

[Ubiety]

Yeah, all one has to do is get his doctor to prescribe him a bottle of Nuffink's Delayed Eighth Notes to sort out his swing.

Terrific comeback Ubiety. You've covered yourself in glory in this thread by your staunch defence of "true" swing*. And now you're a hilarious flame warrier too.

Is there no end to your talents?

*Aided by some solid support from the peanut gallery by BosseJo who sadly had to leave when the game started slipping away.

Well, I thought you and I were having a friendly game of baseball. But if you wish to carry on as the guru of delayed eighth note swing with no one to play with, carry on.

By the way, thanks for presenting me with this fine green jacket. Fore!

[nuffink]

Yeah, all one has to do is get his doctor to prescribe him a bottle of Nuffink's Delayed Eighth Notes to sort out his swing.

Terrific comeback Ubiety. You've covered yourself in glory in this thread by your staunch defence of "true" swing*. And now you're a hilarious flame warrier too.

Is there no end to your talents?

*Aided by some solid support from the peanut gallery by BosseJo who sadly had to leave when the game started slipping away.

Yea you are right, I had to leave...You floored us with your deep understanding of swing. Perhaps you could write some contrived software like Swingplaya - push the button and swingeliswing!

You can ask Sabbatella himself about swing here:
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz

He's been posting there on and off for years. I'm sure he can help you sort things out.

I may well do that.

Still no view from you on what swing is I see. Despite repeated requests. Still no attempt to point out where I'm wrong. Nothing productive at all.

One might almost think that you're another one of those bitter old muso's who know what swing isn't but aren't quite sure enough of their ground to explain what it is (see also Ubiety).

[Ubiety]

One might almost think that you're another one of those bitter old muso's who know what swing isn't but aren't quite sure enough of their ground to explain what it is (see also Ubiety).

Care to tell us the story of who rebuffed your bratty snotty nosed ass for music lessons?

[BosseJo]

I forgot this one:
rec.music.makers.jazz

Using words to describe swing beyond the basics is futile imo and therefore you will never get a WRITTEN defintion from me. Sabbatella's definition works as a basic description but he's forced to use words (he should probably have audio examples as well) but as with him and all other good musicians and teachers, they always give suggestion what to LISTEN to. And that's the only good definition of swing (or any kind music.) To me, pointing out that listening and playing with other musicians (more experienced than yourself if possible) is the best and only way to learn jazz (and swing) is productive. Not reading and writing about it. Once again, how you can quote Sabbatella and totally ignore things like this from his page, is beyond me:

Before you delve into the theory, however, you need to develop a feel for swing. This is part of the rationale behind doing so much listening, since it is virtually impossible to teach swing analytically. Nonetheless, I will try to explain what you should be hearing and trying to achieve in your own playing.

Listen closely to recordings in different styles, paying attention to the differences. Do not be fooled into thinking that swing is a universal constant.

[nuffink]

I forgot this one:
rec.music.makers.jazz

Using words to describe swing beyond the basics is futile imo and therefore you will never get a WRITTEN defintion from me. Sabbatella's definition works as a basic description but he's forced to use words (he should probably have audio examples as well) but as with him and all other good musicians and teachers, they always give suggestion what to LISTEN to. And that's the only good definition of swing (or any kind music.) To me, pointing out that listening and playing with other musicians (more experienced than yourself if possible) is the best and only way to learn jazz (and swing) is productive. Not reading and writing about it. Once again, how you can quote Sabbatella and totally ignore things like this from his page, is beyond me:

Before you delve into the theory, however, you need to develop a feel for swing. This is part of the rationale behind doing so much listening, since it is virtually impossible to teach swing analytically. Nonetheless, I will try to explain what you should be hearing and trying to achieve in your own playing.

Listen closely to recordings in different styles, paying attention to the differences. Do not be fooled into thinking that swing is a universal constant.

Because what he's pointing out is the obvious and universal truth about learning to be a good musician. It's true about anything you learn in music. You don't get good at music by reading about it. But unless someone is willing to give you a clear, unambiguous description of the mechanics of a technique how are you ever going to start?

When the discussion is "what is swing?" you can say

1. It's a type of rhythm where the second of each pair of eighth notes (the off beats) is delayed by an amount at your discretion. Now f**k off and get good at it.

or

2. It's deep dark juju only known to real jazzists after a lifetime of study so don't bother even trying. Now f**k off and make some trance.

You and Ubiety have taken the second position. The route of obfurscation and evasion chosen by twisted old musos, who don't really understand how it works, down the centuries.

It's a bit of a shame on a forum like this, but what the f**k, your choice.