Reaper is not an ugly duckling anymore !

[Sickle]

As to the GUI, I like it just fine personally but it just kind of disappear in front of me as I don't really see it when I work, my attention/concentration is on other things, and that's how I want it to be.

My (read: serious) complaint with the GUI is based on this in part. I agree that when immersed in a true work rhythm a GUI should take a back seat, but when perched on a learning curve the GUI can have a lot to do with whether or not that curve is achieved or even attempted.

A nice GUI for me has always stood as an invitation. Every time I've installed Reaper and opened it I just shake my head and close it/delete it again; there's just no inspiration to further my acquaintanceship with the application, although the skins posted here are an excellent step in the right direction.

With the perceived number of people using the app, maybe t'would be an investment for the dev to hire a pro to skin it out proper, like Bitplant, or even the Northernbeat guy, whose GUI work is damn near flawless, imo.

[aMUSEd]

With the perceived number of people using the app, maybe t'would be an investment for the dev to hire a pro to skin it out proper, like Bitplant, or even the Northernbeat guy, whose GUI work is damn near flawless, imo.

I agree. As I stated above I'm not that keen on having sophisticated skin support. You end up with design by committee and complex skins that stand out too much and usually can't keep up with the develpment of the app. I'd much rather have a well designed, well balanced, ergonomic gui that stays with the app throughout it's lifespan (i.e. up to major revisions). Logic is to me a great example and so is Tracktion actually in a different way. A gui should be friendly and inviting to use and should help you understand the workflow, not make a loud statement on it's own. I'm happy with colour theming and the ability to change track colours etc but not massive over reliance on 3D bitmap elements that need updating when a new feature is added.

[Sickle]

I'm happy with colour theming and the ability to change track colours etc but not massive over reliance of 3D bitmap elements that need updating when a new feature is added.

Yep. We saw the wisdom of that with eXT v1, and the pseudo-cult of skinners and skin-changers that perpetually revised/updated in a constant swirl. Now THAT was bandwidth assault, and I loved many of the skins as much as anyone else, but I cringed every time Jorgen posted an update..

[billybk1]

Can someone please explain why Reaper should even be mentioned in the same sentence as Sonar? Is it a workflow thing? I mean to go from a pretty damn good $500 DAW to REAPER....and that GUI...


My God. Maybe Sonar really is shit. I don't think I've seen one Logic or Cubase user who REALLY knew the software and switched to Reaper.

There are many refugees from other DAW's (SONAR, PT, Cubase, Live, Vegas, ACID, etc.), once the Mac port is complete at the end of the year, you will find Logic users as well. Aside from a feature by feature comparison, my TOP 10 reasons why I switched to primarily using REAPER are:


1 ) Flawless UAD-1 support: (both SONAR & ACID have some major UAD-1 related issues, especially for multi-card users on multi-CPU DAW's)

2 ) Flawless EZdrummer support: (both SONAR & ACID have some minor issues)

3 ) Flawless TranzPort support: (SONAR has a minor setup issue, but ACID causes my TranzPort to freeze up after continous use)

4 ) Constant updates and bug fixes: Both Cakewalk & SONY, like many DAW developers are not nearly as responsive to user needs. Sometimes you have to wait until the next paid for update to get certain issues addressed, if at all.

5 ) Compact .exe size and non-reliance on Windows registry, dll's etc: Quick and easy to install/uninstall, update & startup. You can even run REAPER from a USB thumbdrive.

6 ) Non-intrusive copy protection: only need a simple serial number

7 ) Generous free updates: All updates are free until v2.99 (we are only on v1.873)

8 ) Stability: I rarely have issues except with maybe an errant plugin, at times.

9 ) Efficient use of CPU resources and stability at low project latencies, when compared to other DAW's I have used. I've been able to run 20+ track projects (with lot's of UAD-1 plugins) easily @ 128 samples (2.9msec) & even 64 samples (1.5msec) @ 24/44. Both SONAR & ACID tend to crap out at anything lower than 256 samples (5.8msec) playing those same projects.

10 ) Relatively inexpensive: For $40 bucks even a relative novice can have access to professional level DAW tools.


There was a REAPER thread a few months ago asking the same question with a lot of varied answers, from former users of other DAW's:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread. ... #post79087








I am taking a liking to this new REAPER skin:

[bullshark]

With the perceived number of people using the app, maybe t'would be an investment for the dev to hire a pro to skin it out proper, like Bitplant, or even the Northernbeat guy, whose GUI work is damn near flawless, imo.

I agree. As I stated above I'm not that keen on having sophisticated skin support. You end up with design by committee and complex skins that stand out too much and usually can't keep up with the develpment of the app. I'd much rather have a well designed, well balanced, ergonomic gui that stays with the app throughout it's lifespan (i.e. up to major revisions). Logic is to me a great example and so is Tracktion actually in a different way. A gui should be friendly and inviting to use and should help you understand the workflow, not make a loud statement on it's own. I'm happy with colour theming and the ability to change track colours etc but not massive over reliance on 3D bitmap elements that need updating when a new feature is added.

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about where the app is going with this skinning thing. A lot of Reaper users have asked for more sophisticated skinning support, but I'm not sure they took every outcome of such capability into consideration before asking.

First thing that come to mind is for new users. Reaper is blessed with a very well made quick start guide that's updated frequently and goes quite deep within the app. Now, just imagine a new users trying to learn the app when the guide use a completely different iconography and layout to what he's seeing on his screen; probably enough to uninstall the app and never download again.

I think full skinning support was fine for a media player like Winamp, but Reaper ain't Winamp it's a full featured complex DAW software getting more sophisticated features by the minutes. Nothing to do but wait and see I guess...

[alex zonder]

maybe t'would be an investment for the dev to hire a pro to skin it out proper

I tend to agree. It's completely understandable that REAPER users try to come up with acceptable looks/themes because the default theme is somewhat of a visual shock - but I'd really prefer a really good and balanced design by a pro over all the amateurish bric-a-brac attempts (mine are an example ) to create good looks.

Of course the option to 'build your own' could still be there.

For me the same btw is true for MIDI in REAPER. It's quite good and surely will be better and better. But Justin who is great on audio COULD have hired a MIDI genius to come up with the best implementation of MIDI out there...

Having said that, I also see why Justin's very personal approach to 'building a DAW' is so fascinating for those who follow REAPER's fast and continuous progress. He's discovering and learning things (being very fast at that), implementing them after mastering them. MIDI must have been a fascinating discovery (he is a former Vegas user) and now we witness how he's getting a strong grip on its implementation. He tends to come up with very original and great solutions, and I suppose that is because he does NOT hire any specialists in the field.

It's very interesting, I find, to be able to follow the build up of a DAW such as REAPER.

[aMUSEd]

I think full skinning capability is fine if it leads to the creation of an aesthetically pleasing and ergonomic gui (preferably by a competent designer) but not as an open to all option beyond colour and layout. I know this may sound undemocratic to some but design by committee rarely works and it will make it harder to learn to use the app if there are dozens of radically different looking versions all in different stages of development.

[Dominus]

I think full skinning capability is fine if it leads to the creation of an aesthetically pleasing and ergonomic gui (preferably by a competent designer) but not as an open to all option beyond colour and layout. I know this may sound undemocratic to some but design by committee rarely works and it will make it harder to learn to use the app if there are dozens of radically different looking versions all in different stages of development.

I tend to use "Classic" WinAmp skins myself.. I've been a user of WinAmp since it came out, and I'm *quite* comfortable with it. I've tried a few other MP3 players but have always gone back. I suppose I could use the newer skins because I always use the keyboard shortcuts instead of a mouse, but I'm just used to the small size and functionality.

That said, I'd think that Reaper should come with a few different skins for people to find what they're comfortable with.. granted, they'd want to rename them if they're getting packaged with it. They'd be open to lawsuits if they named the skins after the app that they're modeling. They can just name them Cubed, Cakesong, Vague, Tooled, etc. Of course, the manual should be written with the default skin in mind, but then they can have a page that shows the difference between each of the skins.




As for people saying "if someone already spent x hundred dollars on a "professional" software package, why would they switch to a $40 one? Reaper is $200 for professional use.

[alex zonder]

First thing that come to mind is for new users. Reaper is blessed with a very well made quick start guide that's updated frequently and goes quite deep within the app. Now, just imagine a new users trying to learn the app when the guide use a completely different iconography and layout to what he's seeing on his screen; probably enough to uninstall the app and never download again.

Now Nicholas uses various themes in his great guide. But indeed it would be better to give REAPER a clear and fine looking default theme which would be the theme/iconography/layout of the guide, the wiki, the tutorial vids etc. as well. After learning the basic ins and outs of REAPER, new users could decide for another available theme.

[original flipper]

HI

Yes, it does seem odd in the extreme that a talented graphics
person is not on board for Reaper.

It is a multi-windowed app with masses of stuff that would need
to be redesigned.

It isn't a single screen app like Tracktion where you can imagine
that a lot less time would need to be spent on the graphical side
of things.

In this day and age presentation is (for many) an important part of
what draws people to an application - also, not to play down the fact that
the visual feedback a design/colour scheme/layout plays is likely to decide
if a user can work with a particular application - it being obvious that some
people are not happy by a particular GUI design and will find it unusable
because it does not inspire them to work within that environment.

Flipper.

[Dominus]

First thing that come to mind is for new users. Reaper is blessed with a very well made quick start guide that's updated frequently and goes quite deep within the app. Now, just imagine a new users trying to learn the app when the guide use a completely different iconography and layout to what he's seeing on his screen; probably enough to uninstall the app and never download again.

Now Nicholas uses various themes in his great guide. But indeed it would be better to give REAPER a clear and fine looking default theme which would be the theme/iconography/layout of the guide, the wiki, the tutorial vids etc. as well. After learning the basic ins and outs of REAPER, new users could decide for another available theme.

On one hand, I'd like to agree.. but on the other, if *I* were to switch to Reaper, I'd probably go right in and go with another theme.. seeing as how I'm used to Sonar, Pro Tools, and Acid.. I'd switch to one of those themes, or the closest equivalent. I'm old and don't want to learn a 4th DAW. But yes, I do agree with having the manuals and tutorials showing the default theme, as some people may just stick with it.

Like I said, just have a few pages in the back of the manual showing the differences between the default theme and the other "boxed" themes, if they go that route. Since the manual is PDF, it can be updated with each revision I'm thinking. (Maybe they can have a 2nd download for the "cloned" themes.)

[RunBeerRun]

The coffee and cream theme is great! Thanks.

[Lagrange]

I am taking a liking to this new REAPER skin:

Actually that one is not too bad!

L

[koolkeys]

I still don't like that one too much. Although it is better then the first one in this thread. I like this one better:




Still not perfect, but much nicer on the eyes. I think it's because of the elegance of the buttons(I still prefer text buttons when possible though).

Again though, my complaints aren't with the skins. They are nice. But it is more on a program level then a skin level. Just not how I like to work, even with the options available.

I will say though, that I went through the FX window settings, it gets better, but still doesn't work very well for me. I don't like having the FX routing in a window, period. Yeah, you can dock the FX window. But 90% of the time, the plugin is larger then the dock can be resized. And yes, I know you can undock it and make it larger. But then, you have the entire window covering something else on screen. My preference in this area(and possibly just me) is to be able to see everything in the edit area that is on the screen. If that means that the edit window only takes up half the screen, that's fine. I don't want to move windows out of the way to see the edit window.

Once again, having an FX chain similar to the one in Sonar is preferred. Then you can still have an FX button to open up the current method. Or, you can select a plugin in the chain that is on the track, and only that plugin's interface will pop up, without the FX chain part of the window even.

As much as I hate having TOO many options(I just want it to work and be logical with minimal fuss), this is one set of options that I feel would be needed to make people like me happy, while keeping happy those who prefer the current methods.

Of course, this is only one issue. But for me, it's one of the more major gripes I have with Reaper. Address this and I'll take another good look. The rest of my complaints can follow later.

Brent

[original flipper]

HI

'Koolkeys': I bet you would be dribbling over your T-shirt if there were 'Racks' in Reaper!

TBH so much stuff is 'borrowed' from the competition when it comes to DAW's in general - for the life of me I can't deduce why someone doesn't have a good look around and take the best bit's (I know that is open to interpretation) from what is currently rocking peoples boats and put it together.

Many people love Logic for it's environment, XT for it's modularity, Tracktion for it's racks, Orion for it's quick fire way of getting down midi ideas and so on.

FWIW some of the 'Skins' I have seen here do look pretty good.

Flipper.