Vintage is overrated. Lesson learned(rant)

[daniel_baum]

After modding the analog output stage it sounded even better.

Isn't the gritty output stage supposed to be part of the appeal, at least in the case of first generation DX100's? I would think that improving it would make it *more* like a softsynth, in that it's become a purer representation of the algorithms. Does that make any sense?

At the risk of repeating myself, the "grit" in the first generation FM synths does not add to the appeal of these synths, IMHO. It is simply an annoying hiss.

One generation later (DX7II, TX802 etc.) sound MUCH better.

As for the comparison between soft FM synths and Yamaha hardware. I have used some of them, and actually thought they sounded OK.

The closest I have come across to a Yamaha FM synth is Onyx FM (http://www.hervenoury.com/syntheNS.htm). I checked it against my Yamaha DX21, and the sounds were extremely close, minus the annoying hiss.

One day I will check it against my TX802, but I expect the results to be similar.

That said, I still think there is something in the Yamaha hardware that makes it sound different. Don't know what it is though.

[fas1piano]

www.scherer.de/Download/Mushrooms.mp3

thanks for showing that piece! listening is much better than discussing stuff with words.

while there are a lot of nice and classic sounds in there, listening to the piece just shows me that our tastes are vastly different and musically we are not very much connected, so we probably would find very different things important.

i can't find any direction in the track, it sounds like a crowded sound demo. the sounds don't evolve in a way that to me would seem logical or interesting, i find them static and expressionless. the harmonies and melodies are very simple but not particularly strong. i just can't find the idea of the composition.

also, the sounds you use to me seem old fashioned/ an partly clichéd (the kickdrum, the bells, the pads for example) - which, of course, is purely a matter of taste. others may love the retro vibe.

all this just shows that different people are interested in different things. so if you think that e.g. the sound of the filter resonance of you lead synth just before self oscillation is really important, this would not even occur to me as long as i don't see what it's actually doing in that track at all.

so yes, i am on a totally different musical journey - and on mine, it really does not matter if i use my prodyssey or ACE or an sh2, but i would like to have better timing, please; and keep a 7/8 groove nicely and learn to play all my tunes with ease in F#

[Synthbuilder]

Tony? Yo Dude. Long time no see.

Hi Tom. Indeed, it's been a while. But I've been on KVR for quite some time now. I think it must have started when I bought Tracktion.

Now I just turn up to slag off Sonar, berate Reason's aliasing and bemoan Live's midi timing.

T

[living sounds]

thanks for showing that piece! listening is much better than discussing stuff with words.

while there are a lot of nice and classic sounds in there, listening to the piece just shows me that our tastes are vastly different and musically we are not very much connected, so we probably would find very different things important.

i can't find any direction in the track, it sounds like a crowded sound demo. the sounds don't evolve in a way that to me would seem logical or interesting, i find them static and expressionless. the harmonies and melodies are very simple but not particularly strong. i just can't find the idea of the composition.

also, the sounds you use to me seem old fashioned/ an partly clichéd (the kickdrum, the bells, the pads for example) - which, of course, is purely a matter of taste. others may love the retro vibe.

all this just shows that different people are interested in different things. so if you think that e.g. the sound of the filter resonance of you lead synth just before self oscillation is really important, this would not even occur to me as long as i don't see what it's actually doing in that track at all.

so yes, i am on a totally different musical journey - and on mine, it really does not matter if i use my prodyssey or ACE or an sh2, but i would like to have better timing, please; and keep a 7/8 groove nicely and learn to play all my tunes with ease in F#

I agree with pretty much all of this. This is not a track made for release or even anything remotely finished, but mereley the result of half an hour of checking out a piece of equipment and getting carried away, and then quickly recorded muting parts on an off.

[living sounds]

At the risk of repeating myself, the "grit" in the first generation FM synths does not add to the appeal of these synths, IMHO. It is simply an annoying hiss.

One generation later (DX7II, TX802 etc.) sound MUCH better.

There's something in the first generation synths that I like better. It's not just hiss. They work in a mix like nothing else. No idea why though.

[tomg]

Tony? Yo Dude. Long time no see.

Hi Tom. Indeed, it's been a while. But I've been on KVR for quite some time now. I think it must have started when I bought Tracktion.

Now I just turn up to slag off Sonar, berate Reason's aliasing and bemoan Live's midi timing.

T

I hear you. Not many hardware threads pop up on KVR. I do miss SDIY but I don't miss everyone from SDIY. You were always nice to me. It's good to know you're here. I hope things are going great for you. Cya around buddy.

[living sounds]

How's this for something more "modern" sounding:


edit: wrong version, here's the correct one:

www.scherer.de/Download/DNBL2.ogg

[yellowfever]

Tony? Yo Dude. Long time no see.

Hi Tom. Indeed, it's been a while. But I've been on KVR for quite some time now. I think it must have started when I bought Tracktion.

Now I just turn up to slag off Sonar, berate Reason's aliasing and bemoan Live's midi timing.

T

I hear you. Not many hardware threads pop up on KVR. I do miss SDIY but I don't miss everyone from SDIY. You were always nice to me. It's good to know you're here. I hope things are going great for you. Cya around buddy.

Get a room

[tomg]

Tony? Yo Dude. Long time no see.

Hi Tom. Indeed, it's been a while. But I've been on KVR for quite some time now. I think it must have started when I bought Tracktion.

Now I just turn up to slag off Sonar, berate Reason's aliasing and bemoan Live's midi timing.

T

I hear you. Not many hardware threads pop up on KVR. I do miss SDIY but I don't miss everyone from SDIY. You were always nice to me. It's good to know you're here. I hope things are going great for you. Cya around buddy.

Get a room

It's an interesting story. Maybe some day I'll tell, maybe not. I'm not sure I could be fair. For now, let's just say we go way back to one of the most awesome times for hardware synth geeks ever. It still amazes me the people that were in that group for a short time.

[Synthbuilder]

Get a room

Ooh err.

But, Tom, if you're ever in the English Lakes, be sure to pop in for a cup of tea.

SDIY is still running - probably about 30 to 40 messages a day. There's a lot more digital/software talk these days so it's not all analogue now. Quite a few of the old lot are still there but there's a few newcomers too. It doesn't normally get too heated but someone managed to get banned last month - only the second or third time it's happened I think.

[tomg]

Get a room

Ooh err.

But, Tom, if you're ever in the English Lakes, be sure to pop in for a cup of tea.

SDIY is still running - probably about 30 to 40 messages a day. There's a lot more digital/software talk these days so it's not all analogue now. Quite a few of the old lot are still there but there's a few newcomers too. It doesn't normally get too heated but someone managed to get banned last month - only the second or third time it's happened I think.

You bet. I'm still in Houston let me know if you get close and we'll go some for TexMex and beer or I'll BBQ or something.

I figured some of those guys would be there until they pried the soldering irons from their cold dead fingers... That would be funny if it wasn't true. I miss Papa John all of the time.

I've been done with my medical obligations for 14 months. I lost my board house last year, so I've been dragging my feet, kinda working on my site off and on. I can transfer my old stuff to another house but I may start over or just transfer a few. I'm surprised the parts situation is holding but last time I looked you could still buy what you need to build a synth. Cheers to SDIY for keeping the flame.

[dj ike]

Here's an update, searched some more for the part, no go. Korg, Yamaha don't support it anymore.

I brought it to a instrument repair guy, who went in and soldered/jumped some circuits of the pcb, he got all the keys working minus 4 furthest to the left, he said he couldn't save them because the corrosion on the pcb.

$120 was the cost of the repair, and still not 100%, keyboard is not worth over $100, but hey at least it's a little more useable.

[paladium]

At the risk of repeating myself, the "grit" in the first generation FM synths does not add to the appeal of these synths, IMHO. It is simply an annoying hiss.

One generation later (DX7II, TX802 etc.) sound MUCH better.

There's something in the first generation synths that I like better. It's not just hiss. They work in a mix like nothing else. No idea why though.

Exactly the first generation fms were 14 bit , the later post 86 models added
more waveforms but they cant replicate the sound of the first gen 4 operator
ones , try making the patch 'solid bass' (4 op 14bit pre 86) on the later ones and you will fail

[HunterKiller]

Snakes on a plane?

[syzygywell]

It was a very extensive modification involving a couple of extra circuit boards inside. But unfortunately I'm not able to give any details about it since I was working with help from Moog Music and I signed an NDA with them.

Not a problem. That sounds like much more than I'm capable of tackling, anyway. I do hope we see an Oakley-ized Voyager some day!

That is an mod/update I would pay for!..

At the moment I am considering getting a mini D in the future so that I can have both. I do love my voyager, I didn't get it expecting it to be a modern mini D but merely a fair tribute to it. However in the meantime I have started my modular with Oakley & Motm

This has been a good read. My thoughts on vintage gear are simply that some of it is very useful for specific sounds that really cannot be easily mimicked. There is a price to pay for that sure... service issues and stability in some cases. I have mostly modern gear, the oldest piece I have atm is a jd800 and even it needed some work. (keybed glue issue and broken tactile switches) Some of the older gear is also just so lovely, it is a look thing and a knob thing. Some modern gear is as well though, the virus polar is a beautiful looking synth.

At the end of the day my listening habits is primarily electronic music using all types of gear; analog, modern, digital, and ITB. Mux Mool, Burial, Wisp are all ITB as far as I know... BOC not so much. Sometimes I get back to the stuff I grew up on and you know it really hits me. I was listening to heaven 17 in the car and the sound is so punchy and thick. To me that is the sound I was always after. As far as I understand it at this point it isn't just about the gear at all its the whole process. Micing synths coming through amps and consoles and getting it onto tape (not straight into converters and into a DAW) is another part of the picture frequently over looked in these discussions it seems to me.

It isn't just the sound of gear but the whole recording process that has changed. At this point I have some analog mostly new, a lot of digital some of it older, and some decent outboard not including tape. I do run my soft synths (a few which I adore for flexibility, ease and functionality nothing else has) and run it out into circuitry and then back in. It changes the sound often which is sometimes useful depending on the mix itself.

The other point already addressed is some of the vintage wasn't just more expensive because of the time and place they built it for professional musicians who could afford it. Some of those synths hit the near the $5k mark. In today's dollars that is ridiculous but we don't even get near $5k in quality or price on synths today. Pound for pound some of this old/new isn't even comparable due to that issue as well.