KVR Audio

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:12 pm

Theo, If you are really interested in the Toontrack stuff (Which I'll make clear I am a fan of) then IMveryhumbleHO the one to go for first is Superior Drummer 2/SD2 as you get a great kit usable in many styles/genres, The layout and routing is a lot better plus it loads any of the EZX expansion kits too. You are pretty free to buy the MIDI styles you are after/would use plus the SDX add-ons are great also, Obviously the metal lifer in me loves The Metal Foundry SDX but that is purely personal preference

I also find it works good with layering with other kit libraries or roll your owns should you wish, Mostly Kontakt libraries and Live's drumracks for that purpose. The loop in Shy's compression examples is the default Avatar kit you get with Superior Drummer 2. If you want to fire any MIDI my way for any particular kits/expansion I don't mind doing some examples for you dude, Just give me a shout. Sorry for the OT but it is all with good intentions

Shy, Thanks for shortening to more practical length and levelling each also mate. I really enjoyed the examples posted, In particular the first example on the acoustic kit, They way in which it firms up/tightens the lot together whilst adding just the right amount of sustain/subtle crack to the snare and the kick is more weighty but the beater brought up just spot on for me/my ears. The synthetic example I liked your third example, It made the snare type sound really spit and moult together with the closed hat sound and the kick sound gets a lot more meat but the attack isn't killed. The punch examples I like the 2nd version. It shapes the lot without any side effects that I can hear (Well none of them do tbh, Just mentioning the standouts for me personally) plus the attack of everything sounds just 'right'. I bet it is a real treat on individual sources obviously. A Drawmer I haven't used myself but I have two of the models mentioned with a lot less favour and yeah I wouldn't have guessed it was a DL series/range at all! That's noted down on my used list when I have rack spaces to fill and we've got a proper space with a quality live room (As in the guy I work with and myself, Won't be for a few years or so yet but we don't now and will not be paying through the nose for me too pieces blindly). Cheers

analoguesamples909, If you would like to add to the loop please feel free, I do not have a great skill set when it comes to synthesis, So all I'd do is reach for an airbase, 808 or kick lancet sample which I won't have access to until Friday at least, Same time I'll get chance hopefully to post an example of one or two of the compressors I/We have and like. So if you want to add in heavier kick(s) to your preference then please man be my guest

Also that is as long as the other's do not mind

All the best to all as always and cheers

Dean

codec_spurt · Post by **codec_spurt** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:22 am

I don't know if anyone posted this before, so apologies if they did. I've done my compressor research and I'm not wading through nearly 10 pages to find out.

However, this did spring to mind:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep09/a ... essors.htm

It gives a pretty good run down on what is used for what and why a lot of the stuff that is emulated now, is emulated.

cheers.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:52 pm

Well, again, thanks to analoguesamples909 and Dean. Since there is clearly much interest in developing a discussion based on actual freaking samples instead of theories and adjectives, I'll post examples of my other favorite compressor (Drawmer LX20) which has a very different character, excels at "punch" and is much more suitable for audio that is mostly percussive.

Drawmer LX20 acoustic drums compression examples

Normalized, original included.
I just hope people will process the sample with their compressors and find out some important things that are easily noticeable.

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:13 am

Very interesting examples...definite bite on the attack and punch - and I like how it treats the kick and ambience...

I just spent some time trying to match the Slate VBC compressors with this example using the dry sample and the plugin. The Grey and Red didnt have a character at all similar although it was interesting try to match, but I could get FG Mu to sound similar...

I recommend anyone try the same and A/B to experiment. Its quite an eye opener to directly compare...

Its worth noting that this unit can be found at under £100...

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:23 pm

One of these is VBC and the other is the LX20

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/799 ... or%20A.wav

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/799 ... or%20B.wav

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:35 pm

As I mentioned elsewhere (before I knew where it came from), I think the VBC sample is simply lacking. Of course, it may be usable but it's the usual boring envelope curve that doesn't give you much of a feel of loudness, the simple/"vanilla" envelope has no character at all or any "lively" quality, there's no "smack" from the attack, release and interaction between them, and high frequencies are attenuated too much in this case. And yet, the two samples above are fairly moderate, go higher and higher in threshold (included in my previous post) and become more and more frustrated when you hear what any current digital compressor can't do.

The main issue is not even about what sounds "better", but about what sounds like a real, distinct effort and design and what doesn't. A compressor with compression behavior that's pretty much identical to so many others' and yet is claimed to be at least fairly unique, that's what plugin users are falling for (oh my, you're still not getting "that sound"?). Getting -some- basic levels more or less similar to those of some analog compressor's by tweaking your basic math's values doesn't mean "modeling" ANYthing, nor does it mean making any effort to create a musical instrument. Users can go on with "oh but it's not meant to be exact, it has bullshit like saturation on top, it adds harmonics, it was inspired by blah" - No real efforts were taken, anyone could easily find that out for themselves. It's just the same old approach.

I guess even if I post examples of the real Variable Mu (pretty sure I could get one from someone) I'd get comments from weirdos, like "I don't like what it does to the cymbals" or "yes but the plugin is really a super duper hybrid of sorts with silky distortion on top" (keep believing that), totally ignoring the point. You can always claim you prefer vanilla comp #988 from plugin land, but I know what people want which software can't give them yet. If anyone bothers to reply to me with criticism or questions for the sake of it, don't expect a reply unless you post samples. I'm way done with groundless debates about audio stuff, so participate properly or don't and just reply to someone else.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:30 pm

Pair of cheap and nasty Sony headphones is telling me there is something off with compressor A. In these budget, onehunglow bad boys the best term I can come up with is anemic.

So shame on me/public humiliation if compressor A is the LX20. Even though the closed backs I used are rather naff, I'm pretty well used to them

lacandon · Post by **lacandon** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:04 pm

I did test like this using Drawmer Dl 221 against soft and i noticed that the soft comp i used worked way too much on the highs ....the hw added tickness warmth and live feeling.I heard also Ubk eliminent against several hw boxes and i felt the same it was working on the highs no smack....it may be my taste but i liked almost all the time the hw.

FeelingMachine · Post by **FeelingMachine** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:27 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:One of these is VBC and the other is the LX20

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/799 ... or%20A.wav

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/799 ... or%20B.wav

The perceived volume on B is louder.

I adjusted for this and in this example as a drum bus comp, my preference is A.

Its nice and 'sewn up tight', good smack which stays constant as does the level of the entire loop. The low end is under control, and thus more present and clean mids.

B sounds a little more flabby on the low end and doesn't quite have the smack of A, aswell as a slight wavering in level.

Which is which !?

Edit ; Using Sennhesier 650s and a RME Fireface 800.

kvaca · Post by **kvaca** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:08 pm

FeelingMachine wrote: The perceived volume on B is louder.

it is not louder, but B /LX20/ has all peaks heavily clipped /plus enhanced same time/, which makes you feel its louder...

cryophonik · Post by **cryophonik** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:53 pm

Not sure I just now noticed this thread, but it made for a fantastic Sunday morning read. Suddenly, I'm GAS'ing for all the DMG plugins!

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:50 pm

kvaca wrote:
FeelingMachine wrote: The perceived volume on B is louder.

it is not louder, but B /LX20/ has all peaks heavily clipped /plus enhanced same time/, which makes you feel its louder...

When talking about which is louder you never, ever, talk about peak loudness but apparent loudness. It would make no sense if peak loudness was in question.

You MUST always compare with apparent loudness or you are fooling your ears/brain. So many things affect apparent loudness.. amount of distortion being one of those.

Cheers!
bManic

kvaca · Post by **kvaca** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:47 pm

@bmanic,
who told you I was talking about peak loudness?

yes - I have talked about clipped and enhanced peaks, but the AVERAGE loudness is more or less the same in both cases
and yes,I agree that distortion affects perceived loudness, but thats more or less the same what I have written before, so I dont see any reason of your post apart from some personal attack...
cheers

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:06 pm

RMS is pretty close but I agree B appears slightly louder... although A actually has higher peaks IIRC...

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:43 am

kvaca wrote:@bmanic,
who told you I was talking about peak loudness?
yes - I have talked about clipped and enhanced peaks, but the AVERAGE loudness is more or less the same in both cases
and yes,I agree that distortion affects perceived loudness, but thats more or less the same what I have written before, so I dont see any reason of your post apart from some personal attack...
cheers

Eh? How on earth did you take my post as a personal attack? It's very common to mistake peak loudness, heck even average or RMS loudness as making one source equal in loudness to another.

Well, the case is not so simple. That's why I used the term apparent loudness. In short: It means, you the user, needs to tweak the volume of the two sources so that you think they match in volume. THEN do the comparison you want to do.

You corrected FeelingMachine dude saying that the B example is not louder. Well, in his opinion, it was louder. Thus your answer to him was strange so I assumed you meant peak loudness or some other loudness which is measured on a meter.. but the human hearing is not working that way. Hence the need for very sophisticated metering (so many factors shape the way we hear perceived loudness. Frequency balance, distortion, transients vs sustain portion of a sound etc).

My post was a general comment on how it's not as easy as one would think to volume match things. Thus it's usually best to not look at any metering and go by apparent/perceived loudness when doing any kind of AB type comparison.

And no, this is not a personal attack of any kind.

Cheers!
bManic

Different types of compression, SSL vs 1176 vs 1a2a vs DBX160 ect...