No demo, refund and even NFR of some orchestral libraries - is that legal?

[jancivil]

Isn't the main problem that you can't really copy protect a sample library? .

That's a no.

Ignoring the fact that a majority of Kontakt sample libraries are not using the NI licensing protection anyway, that's a "yes".

If something is encrypted and the program you have does the decryption, you don't break the encryption. You break the program. So these libraries are torrented as-is.

Yes, Kontakt can be cracked. Breaking that protection absolutely does_not mean that you cannot 'copy-protect' something which works within, which is evidenced by it having been done; and, through the fact you have acknowledged that it is NOT the LIBRARIES that have the copy-mechanism broken, but a whole 'nother procedure, only reinforces the fact there.

Just sayin'. I don't like to be gainsaid when I've stated a simple fact. Most people probably don't care much for that.

[jancivil]

I always had the feeling, that the claim Kontakt player is "free", is a false statement. As a customer you pay twice. With the full Kontakt you pay a lot for a DRM system but also get a sound developing framework. But you can't use it for GPL like developement.
I wonder if Hise hase the potential to break into that system and open the market...

What market? What sample library developer would use a platform where their samples could be "liberated"?

Soundiron. As the post you gainsaid informed us of.

Samples in a Kontakt library can be liberated. Or they can be copy-protected! And the compression format, last I looked could be encrypted or not, in which case you can do a 'save instrument as' and tick the 'save instrument and samples' and there they'll be.

I had a computer stolen where all someone had to do was hit the dock for 'Google Chrome' and my bookmarks for things like 'Native Instruments support' or '8DIO support' and access my accounts because auto log-in. And stole all my accounts simply by establishing his own {dsucess@yahoo.com} over them. Now, I was able to convey to NI that this was in fact my account and my purchases and they returned it to me. However 8DIO only needed to see 10 downloads of something to deny me any download of it onto my new system and then tell me to go f**k myself. I suppose one cracks Kontakt and finds it on a torrents site but I in fact do not. And they're assholes like that. Trust me on that.

But 'the market' is many things. One thing that is not true is that the reason Kontakt costs what it does is purely through 'DRM'. It doesn't cost very much if you ask me. But I'm someone that remembers Ensoniq Mirage and its wondrous 8-bit engine and 128kilobytes of RAM for 1600 dollars American (and no GUI, defining loop points in HEX in a 2x 7-digit Light Emitting Diode display). Perspective. And not feeling so f**king entitled as all that.

[dandezebra]

Did anyone find an 80gb sample library that I could demo yet?

[yellowmix]

Sorry that happened to you, I've heard similar stories about 8DIO so I have no interest in their libraries. NI's always been good about license transfers and stuff like that so glad to hear about it.

Regading Soundiron, they do have Kontakt Player-protected libraries, and the more esoteric ones aren't. Pretty much every sample library developer does this in one way or another. Spitfire's Labs range isn't Player-enabled, but still encrypted. Soundiron actually gives you WAV files which is a nice bonus. But when we're talking about expensive-to-produce and highly sought-after productions, they will employ more stringent protection.

VSCO, for example, ranges from completely open public domain to encrypted Kontakt format to NI licensing, depending on the edition. So sure, HISE might be useful for the first situation, but it isn't going to spark a GPL revolution in sampling libraries, nor is anyone prevented from already doing so with Kontakt. This post started as a rant about trivially distributed digital property so naturally we're now talking about open source and how sample libraries want to be free.

As for breaking protection on sample libraries, I'm answering in the spirit the question was asked. It doesn't matter what specific link is broken in the chain, when you can use the sample instrument without a valid license. But you're right, the problem is not that sample libraries cannot be copy-protected, it is that people will pirate them and snuff sales of a product in a way that is irreversible.

[poshook]

there is no "downloadable products nature".

Oh FFS, think about it. One now has something they can upload to a torrents site and give to everybody that would think to locate it. So, some feel that there is a fair likelihood that some people actually will, and once done ask for their money back.

My money back request was based on impossibility to trying the product before the purchase what is a fact. The assumption that I am a thief and a fraudster is a prerequisite based on nothing. When we assume that I am serious customer who use only purchased software, this type of customer approach is unserious.

[yellowmix]

My money back request was based on impossibility to trying the product before the purchase what is a fact. The assumption that I am a thief and a fraudster is a prerequisite based on nothing. When we assume that I am serious customer who use only purchased software, this type of customer approach is unserious.

Okay, so are you going to rant about developers who use any form of DRM, including serial numbers, who don't allow returns? That's based on the assumption that you are a possible thief.

[dandezebra]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

[shidostrife]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

I just remembered. Air Structure's demo contains the whole factory library (37GB). They're encrypted, though.

[pixie.army]

My money back request was based on impossibility to trying the product before the purchase what is a fact. The assumption that I am a thief and a fraudster is a prerequisite based on nothing. When we assume that I am serious customer who use only purchased software, this type of customer approach is unserious.

It's the reality unfortunately. It's something to definitely consider in the future when purchasing libraries. I personally try pretty hard to stick clear of companies that have no resale option or no option to fully demo their products beforehand. It can be tough sometimes, but when it comes to instruments, there are so many amazing options, and many companies with great sales / demo policies.

The upside to the subscription model eventually taking over everything (inevitable - everything is going this way) is that the market will force all companies to offer their whole catalog for monthly fees that can be cancelled. This whole era of large non-refundable software purchases will eventually be over.

And don't mind the comments here. You'll get a lot of corporate bootlicking and defense of crappy business practices in any industry, but music industry consumers are in a league of their own. Which is always funny to me, since so many people in our industry aren't exactly rich. I can afford pretty much everything I want, but I'm still hugely wary (edit: aware) that not everyone can, and sometimes people make mistakes and want a refund.

[EvilDragon]

I don't think absolutely everything will go subscription-based. Especially not all the sample library vendors. Some of them, perhaps, but most of them, probably not, especially if tied to Kontakt, or having their own proprietary engines (Spectrasonics, Vienna...) Seems like EastWest is the only one there, I don't see NI going subscription based any time soon, or ever.

[dandezebra]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

I just remembered. Air Structure's demo contains the whole factory library (37GB). They're encrypted, though.

That is true but not in the same category as the OP's Kontakt library.

Is there a mega Kontakt library that can be FULLY demoed? Like Requiem Pro, Venus Choir, etc...

The thread has gone from bashing Spitfire to now an attempt to bash any vendor that uses any nonpiracy technique. I'm not a huge fan of some of them but... Check some of the pirate websites to see what is these assholes make available sometime.

Damn you Air for using encrypted files! How dare you assume I am not a good person!

[poshook]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

And this is the problem, as they are just few. Most of the developers do not provide demo. So I would expect at least money back policy if you can not try it before buy. But they do not even offer a demo, nor a refund, nor a resale. Whole risk is at customer side. There is even no discussion about that with developer and individual assessment.

[dandezebra]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

And this is the problem, as they are just few. Most of the developers do not provide demo. So I would expect at least money back policy if you can not try it before buy. But they do not even offer a demo, nor a refund, nor a resale. Whole risk is at customer side. There is even no discussion about that with developer and individual assessment.

This comes back to the original point. Why would any developer (who according to you almost all think we are pirating software - Spectrasonics, NI, u-he, Image-Line, Sugar-Bytes, Spitfire, Soundiron, 8Dio, HG Fortune's paid synths, etc.) let everyone download an 80gb library as a demo? Apparently, no one does. So why would you have the expectation that Spitfire should after you admitted to making a mistake with the purchase. Again, I do feel sorry for you not getting the library you thought you were getting but...come on!

Can you prove to Spitfire after downloading that you have deleted the files?

Your complaints about the lack of what content you expected have been clearly outlined by many posters in this thread referring to the manual, articulation lists, plethora of youtube videos, etc.

Are you still making the claim that Spitfire lied to you about their advertising? I still have not seen a response to my question about the EW library advertising.

I do sincerely hope that you investigate Albion One more than you have as it is an absolute beast of a library. I learn new things I can do with this library almost every time I use it. Worst case scenario, maybe you will get a discount in a few years to the Albion Infinite (I am making all of this up!) Library that will be released sometime that will be the end all of orchestra samples! No demo though...

Happy New Year all and go make some muzak!

[murnau]

New year, old crybaby poshook.

[pixie.army]

I don't think absolutely everything will go subscription-based. Especially not all the sample library vendors. Some of them, perhaps, but most of them, probably not, especially if tied to Kontakt, or having their own proprietary engines (Spectrasonics, Vienna...) Seems like EastWest is the only one there, I don't see NI going subscription based any time soon, or ever.

I don't think absolutely everything will go subscription-based. Especially not all the sample library vendors. Some of them, perhaps, but most of them, probably not, especially if tied to Kontakt, or having their own proprietary engines (Spectrasonics, Vienna...) Seems like EastWest is the only one there, I don't see NI going subscription based any time soon, or ever.

Everything is going subscription (or more accurately, SaaS / Software as a Service). It's not even debatable. When Apple, Microsoft, Avid, Adobe, Google, Intuit, Autodesk, gaming / film / music / retail industries go one direction...everyone goes. The move isn't just for profit - it's for efficiency in development, security, stability, consistency (developer and consumer), updating, licensing and the side effect of being amazing at fighting piracy. And it's future proofing against upcoming operating system methodologies (desktop / mobile).

Around 15 audio companies already offer subscriptions: Avid (Pro Tools), Waves, McDsp, East West, Slate, Softube, Exponential Audio, Kush Audio, and a bunch of others. That number is going to skyrocket in 2018.

I predict Native Instruments will offer a subscription option by the end of 2019 - most likely earlier. I already assume Native Access is part of a platform change to facilitate it. If not, it's a good foundation when they do go. Dealing with 3rd party developer subscriptions will require an investment, and is something I'm sure NI is already dealing with - as it's guaranteed other developers using Kontakt platform are already pushing them on this heavily.