Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[Pashkuli]

Well, let's not get deep into apocrypha and "old pagan traditions" (e.g. "illegal" schools).
Every school! Education (all across Europe) was monitored and governed by the church.
Thankfully music could never be "guided" into the doctrines of the establishment.
Later Renaissance came... art, science... you know the Holy Inquisition (the successor of those who hunted down and killed people who had saved through the ages even a fraction of the scrolls from the Library of Alexandria).

What public schools, mate? The majority of the population was illiterate till the end of the 18th century!!!
But music did not need any "literacy". Get your logical thinking together, please.
Otherwise I will have to ignore your posts.

[BertKoor]

So are we "there" yet?

[Pashkuli]

@TribeOfHǫfuð
I said in schools, not at home or in the pub. Never said any "public schools".
Thus, we had an elitists music: educated and approved by the church
and the common folk music, that did not care at all about reading music. Those folks could not even spell a word.

Of course Mozart did "flip the bird" at archbishops and trolled some established by the church librettos and norms in Music.
But he could afford that, being a son of Leopold.

But the music notation is the topic here. And yes, it has been developed and designed by the church clerks for the specific needs of the church chants and choirs (at first).

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

What public schools, mate? The majority of the population was illiterate till the end of the 18th century!!!

Except that it was you who claimed folkmusic was forbidden at schools

@TribeOfHǫfuð
I said in schools, not at home or in the pub. Yes, I know a lot about that period.

A pile of projective bs.

But music did not need any "literacy". Get your logical thinking together, please.

You really think your turning tables worked? Think again. You have shown the most fallacious, conceited, blinded and ignorant thinking from the start of your thread, and as you can see, it is pretty transparant to most posters.

Otherwise I will have to ignore your posts.

No worries. I am out, and you are hereby welcomed to my ignore list. For a moment I thought you were seroius about your hobby, but at the end of the day, you were just another internet-looney promoting his gospel of madness and what follows of screwed and distorted thinking like the projection above. You can use this for some negative attention only, and then the show is over for good. Enjoy while you can.

[Pashkuli]

@TribeOfHǫfuð
go, mate for good. Go chat with JanCivil and his off-topic nonsense. There a plenty of topics in Music Theory section, where your competence will be welcomed, I am sure.

[fmr]

What knowledge?
This church notation came out from years of bad practices, mostly related to vocal chants. It has nothing to do with knowledge.

WTF are you talking about? What "bad" practices?

Do you even know how notation was born? Do you know that current notation compares to those first notation attempts as much current western writing compares to Egypt hieroglyphs (or ancient greek writing, at best)?

Yes, I do know. I specified above: vocal chants. Not the instruments used to play music.
It was the chants, specifically those who were considered "pious", not the "sacrilegious" (pagan) songs of the plebs (ordinary folk).

Actually there was a time when for years if not centuries, any folk music was forbidden in favour of the church chants at schools and education. Most if not all schools were under the control of the church. That origin of control can still be seen even today.

You know nothing at all. Folk music forbidden?

Actually, notation started with church music only because monks were pretty much the only ones able to read and write. Folk music was never forbidden. And there were even many "sacrilegious" songs that were notated and reached the current days. Sure, those are not from the first times of notation, but they were early enough to be medieval, still.

The majority of the population was illiterate till the end of the 18th century!!!

True. So what? There goes your "renaissance" argument.

But music did not need any "literacy".

Oh really? So, what "illiterate musicians" do you know from the middle ages, renaissance, baroque, classic, romantic, and even XXth century? I'll be waiting for the names

[vurt]

Lucky I am not a mod around here. When someone pukes on truth at the cost of historical facts and replaces it with deluded fantasies from Dunning-Kruger land like this, I would have closed the thread and asked him to find a forum for QAnon disciples. This lack of respect for facts and shameless use of misinformation to own benefits are some of the most nauseating tendencies of the internet age.

It's not my job to judge his facts, there is your problem right there. That would be beyond a slippery slope to head down, mods shouldnt act with their feelings toward a subject as you suggest. We try to enforce the rules, keep the scammer and spammers away, but we are not the arbiter on what facts are right or wrong in a subject and it would be terribly wrong of us to do so. Even in a case where you feel it is quite blatant, it's just not a door to even open just a little...not the job of a mod.

You guys are showing him his errs, perhaps he wont ever listen, that's not the point. Believe it or not it is entirely possible things said in challenging the OP might benefit another, so again there is no reason to act. The QAnon comment sums it up nicely, and I do see your point.

im not going there again!
last time i ended up dressed as a buffalo

[Pashkuli]

Actually, notation started with church music only because monks were pretty much the only ones able to read and write. Folk music was never forbidden. And there were even many "sacrilegious" songs that were notated and reached the current days. Sure, those are not from the first times of notation, but they were early enough to be medieval, still.

Good. They could play all music in the chamber halls, sing all the "explicit" lyrics of the common folk and enjoy the common tradition between classes. Thank you for enlightening me.

[fmr]

Actually, notation started with church music only because monks were pretty much the only ones able to read and write. Folk music was never forbidden. And there were even many "sacrilegious" songs that were notated and reached the current days. Sure, those are not from the first times of notation, but they were early enough to be medieval, still.

Good. They could play all music in the chamber halls, sing all the "explicit" lyrics of the common folk and enjoy the common tradition between classes. Thank you for enlightening me.

"They" (the ones who wrote those songs) certainly sung them. Where, it's debatable, but if they created them they certainly did that. And what "explicit" lyrics did the "common folks" sing? I think you are expecting too much from those poor souls. They got up every day with just one idea in mind: What to do to survive another day. They would be happy if they had something to eat.

The ones that created the "sacrilegious" songs were certainly not "common folks" but "privileged folks" who had enough free time and resources to spend learning how to read and write (besides music). There goes your "socialist" theory.

Anyway, those are certainly not the best music pieces of those times that reached us (believe it or not, the best ones came from composers that mainly wrote "sacred" music), and their interest is mainly historical and sociological, not musical.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Lucky I am not a mod around here. When someone pukes on truth at the cost of historical facts and replaces it with deluded fantasies from Dunning-Kruger land like this, I would have closed the thread and asked him to find a forum for QAnon disciples. This lack of respect for facts and shameless use of misinformation to own benefits are some of the most nauseating tendencies of the internet age.

It's not my job to judge his facts, there is your problem right there. That would be beyond a slippery slope to head down, mods shouldnt act with their feelings toward a subject as you suggest. We try to enforce the rules, keep the scammer and spammers away, but we are not the arbiter on what facts are right or wrong in a subject and it would be terribly wrong of us to do so. Even in a case where you feel it is quite blatant, it's just not a door to even open just a little...not the job of a mod.

You guys are showing him his errs, perhaps he wont ever listen, that's not the point. Believe it or not it is entirely possible things said in challenging the OP might benefit another, so again there is no reason to act. The QAnon comment sums it up nicely, and I do see your point.

Sorry I forgot to comment this, but right, corrected premise: If I was a mod AND owned the site

Remember the “Music theory conspiracy” thread? Claiming just about the same nonsense about the domination of the Roman Church till it ended up in distorted political-historical absurdities and was sent HPC. There are some serious similarities. Not at least making up alternative history on the fly and reinterpretating people’s answers into anything that fits.

Good luck to members trying to counter this with facts. You may as well try to convince Marjorie Taylor that Trump did not win the election.

[Erisian]

The majority of the population was illiterate till the end of the 18th century!!!

And guess what might cause you a little cognitive dissonance?

The increase in literacy rate was more likely due, at least in part, to religious influence, since most of the schools and colleges were organized by clergy, missionaries, or other religious organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education ... ightenment

[BertKoor]

That was the Protestant church which wanted all people to be able to read the bible. It was the Catholic church that held messes in Latin which no one understood.
Anyway, this is HPC material.

[Pashkuli]

Please, let's leave the religion in the Dark ages.
It was just a historical remark of the facts, which led to the creation of the so called "standard music notation".

Of course even in the Dark ages there was the tablature invented: a blessing for fretted instruments such as lute, mandolin and later — guitars.

Even people who appear to be modern thinkers and having scientific mind, get defensive about anything that involves religious influence.

The topic is: alternative music notation and PMN in particular as proposed
We can not change the facts in the past. And we frankly do not need them further in this discussion.

[Pashkuli]

Please, concentrate on the following aspects of PMN:

1. It is intended as a 'generalised tablature' for any instrument
(by design it could be thought of as if you had the strings tuned in "octaves" and 12 frets for each distinctive note of the 12 to repeat in their respective rows\renova\"octave")

2. Imagine having a musician with a "perfect pitch" who also happens to be blind.
Do they need an up-down graphical representation of pitch, or rather do they "know" the 12 pitches?

3. PMN can be thought of is a visual representation of the so called "perfect pitch".
Thus any musician can "learn" it and read\write their music with it.

That is all about it: 12 notes = 12 symbols, spread across a few renovas ("octaves").
Here is an example over a standard piano layout, root note F or Fe (old D, Re):

PMN - Fe overlay renova notes.jpg

[Erisian]

Well, it works for you and it might work for some others - who knows - so I wish you good luck. I'm out of here, at least for the time being.