So... Is ambient the new fashion or,,,

[whyterabbyt]

ahja quoth

Its fairly obvious, isn't it?

Nope.


... and please, I'm not speaking of KVR alone, actually that is just a very small fraction of it. Go to the record shops and see how large the ambient section has grown the past few years.

What 'ambient section'?

Go look on online music sites ... and look how many ambient producers suddenly appeared.

Compared to what? Ambient 7 or 8 years ago, or any other genre? I see more of an increase in boy/girl band shite, more dance music, more lame punk/metal bands aimed at 12 year olds.

And is that supposed to make it 'cool' anyway? Is that supposed to prove its actually being done to be cool?

Sorry, I see nothing resembling proof of anything here.

[ahja]

Well of course not. You are out to get me at this point. Doesn't matter what I say, you'll argue it.

[Markleford]

In other words, is your belief based on some kind of empirical evidence, or merely an assumption based on the implications of your understanding of process?

Well given that there really cannot be "empirical evidence" without a statistically valid survey of self-proclaimed online "ambientists" (and that will never happen!), it's all up to my observation of discussion on various communities out there on the net.

Mind you, this not a reflection on musicians that have actually put forth a recorded output. Moreover, it is often a commentary on the number of people that like to stake *some* claim on being a musician without having any experience or training towards those ends.

Some amount of these start as people who endeavor to become "producers" of more pop forms, but then find that they have no talent to become effective immediately, nor do they have the discipline to teach themselves "the rules". One way out of the situation is to slide into the territory of "no rules" and claim that they produce "ambient music".

Of course, such "product" never materializes, and most of their output appears in the form of haughty forum discussions on how snobby people are against their "music". But you never get to *hear* what they're working on. *Or* you get to hear something "in progress"... but everything they post is "in progress" and you never hear the end product.

Again, this is because they lack the discipline, or for some other reason refuse to invest themselves in the process.

As such, I suggest that "directionless tweaking" is the most common form engaged in by the ambient "producer" population. Not that you'll hear actual *audio* from this majority, but you will be subjected to their claims to future greatness and uniqueness on many a forum.

You have to remember, there is also a substantial number of people who render out demo songs for hosts (and the works of others) and claim them as their own. Why would *anyone* want to do this? I can only assume it's because they want to be considered as a musician but cannot or will not invest themselves in the process.

So to me, many ambient tweakers are just a step above this. They have the software (legal or not), and want to be a part of the "scene", so they find that there is a genre where the minimum investment is the tweak of a few knobs. The bonus of it all, of course, is that if someone casts aspersions on their music they just have to say, "You just don't *understand*", or, "You've been brainwashed by the pop music industry": suddenly you're a musico *and* a rebel!

And then there's the other side of the minimum-investment crew that layer techno loops. We've also discussed that ad nauseum!

After all, I would suspect that certain 'minimum investments' for dance music are far more common. I dont remember 'eJay Dark Ambient', for example.

Agreed (as mentioned previously). The number of bedroom technoids far outstrips the ambient chuckleheads. However, my claim remains that the amount of ambientists out there contain a substantial-to-perhaps-majority of poseurs. Again, with the caveat that you do not have to exhibit recorded output to make this claim.

That's certainly something I agree with, and I find it offensive that someone should dismiss those efforts on the grounds that those people are merely on a bandwagon to be 'cool'. That kind of attitude hardly encourages people, newbies or not.

Certainly, serious ambientists aren't on the road to coolness. In fact, they may indeed have the noblest agenda of a love of pure sound in its rawest forms.

I don't mean to judge serious craftsmen with the rabble. I'm just saying there's a *damn* lot of rabble out there!

And let's face it: how much easier is it to get lit and tweak knobs as compared to getting down to some serious songwriting. The guitarist for my old beat-metal band used to do this. Perhaps that's one of my weighted data-points, as well.

As a final exhibit: Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music", to me, is a middle finger thrusting jerkoff of a contractual obligation album. Yet it is treated as a serious work in many ambient circles. The debate will *always* exist on this one, yet it is clear to me that there is no investment by Reed on this album. Quite the obvious, in fact.

But either way, I suppose it still makes an "artistic statement".

- m

[vurt]

Doesn't matter what I say, you'll argue it.

no we wont

[declassified]

removed...

[luCiPHer]

well, my ambient-days are behind me, i simply CAN'T produce ambient anymore, but i still listen to some ambient-style music, not everything, mostly things with actual melodies or rythms or things that are REALLY dark

i do understand why so much ambient is produced these days.
it's fun to create music that is 100% about sounds, timing and mood, and not about playing-technique, music-theory and mumbojumbo like that

[vurt]

*EDIT*

removed...I shouldn't have shouted that out loud...

albeit too late
ive got your number

[whyterabbyt]

ahja quoth Well of course not.

Well if you knew you didnt have proof, why did you claim something causally unrelated was proof then?

You are out to get me at this point.

Is that shorthand for "I cant actually substantiate anything Im saying, so I'll pretend Im being victimised"

Rather than the mroe preferable "Here's something that actually substantiates what I'm saying in some way"

Doesn't matter what I say, you'll argue it.

No, if you say something which has substance, evidence, and a considered rationale, then I'll possibly accept it.
If you make claims with no logical or causal basis to support them, then I'll point that out.

[declassified]

albeit too late
ive got your number

Crap! From all ambientalists, why must it have been you?

[Sicklecell666]

removed...

No need for that man, I saw your post & you didn't express anything I could take offense to. It's one thing to say, "You know what..? Ambience is a shit thing to me..". Fine, if so, but it's another to say, "Your methods are invalidating, hence I do not like your material"..

[declassified]

Ok now that even Sickle has approved it , here is the original uncut outtake

Seems like everyone and there mother is producing ambient these days, especially around these parts.

No. I don't produce ambient at all. That's exactly the reason why my music (and the music of other non-ambient fellows) isn't that famous here.

As to me, Ambient sucks. I don't get in any mood when listening to it. And that's why I dislike it. Ambient should create an ambience, a mood. And if I don't get in any mood, it is just some pads, noise, effects, strange bleeps and something like that.


The problem of this discussion seems to be that those who don't produce ambient think that there's too much ambient around, but those who are into ambient think that the not so pure ambient styles aren't ambient.

[whyterabbyt]

Just out of interest, apart from ahja, who involved in this thread is actually doing stuff they consider 'ambient'.

Im not. I know that what I do might get described as 'dark ambient' or whatnot, but its not what Im doing.

Anyone?

[Sicklecell666]

Ok now that even Sickle has approved it , here is the original uncut outtake

Seems like everyone and there mother is producing ambient these days, especially around these parts.

No. I don't produce ambient at all. That's exactly the reason why my music (and the music of other non-ambient fellows) isn't that famous here.

As to me, Ambient sucks. I don't get in any mood when listening to it. And that's why I dislike it. Ambient should create an ambience, a mood. And if I don't get in any mood, it is just some pads, noise, effects, strange bleeps and something like that.


The problem of this discussion seems to be that those who don't produce ambient think that there's too much ambient around, but those who are into ambient think that the not so pure ambient styles aren't ambient.

Try using more drugs..

[spaceman]

I like beer

[declassified]

Im not. I know that what I do might get described as 'dark ambient' or whatnot, but its not what Im doing.

Exactly what I wanted to say...

@Sickle: Music is a drug (and doing it is like sex). I think so, but I have no real comparison because I never had the event I'm comparing music to