What's the point of mixers in software sequencers?

[Lunch Money]

I think that illustrates the point nicely. IMO Tracktion's faders with that many tracks would be really hard to deal with. Logic's faders are long and the metering is better as well IMO. If you are going to be mixing a large project on screen with a mouse, I'd give the edge by a mile to Logic.

Yes, but only if that's your way of mixing. When mixing in Tracktion, you can't make it work the way Logic does. If the Logic way is what you're comfortable with, cool, but I think the screenshots ALSO illustrate why some people prefer mixing in Tracktion.

Greg

[TVD]

I think they only break the workflow. The sequencers should just have all the required controls right on the arrange window, not separate mixer window.
A good example is Ableton Live. It has everything available infront of you.

What do you guys think?

Unless I can find at least $1200 for a hardware mixer, All sequencers/soft studio need to have a software mixer included!!!

Thread over!!!

[Lunch Money]

Glad to see we're an open-minded bunch. <chuckle>

[braj]

I think that illustrates the point nicely. IMO Tracktion's faders with that many tracks would be really hard to deal with. Logic's faders are long and the metering is better as well IMO. If you are going to be mixing a large project on screen with a mouse, I'd give the edge by a mile to Logic.

Yes, but only if that's your way of mixing. When mixing in Tracktion, you can't make it work the way Logic does. If the Logic way is what you're comfortable with, cool, but I think the screenshots ALSO illustrate why some people prefer mixing in Tracktion.

Greg

http://www.undereternityblue.com/T2.jpg

Here's a T2 screen with 24 tracks. Notice the slivers that are the volume filters, they are really hard to deal with like this. A scroll mouse helps (or a control surface) but you still can't get a visual idea what is going on. The meters are terrible at this size as well. The alternative is to have the tracks show at a larger size, but then you can't see everything in your composition. If you get much higher than 25 tracks and hit F8 to show all tracks on screen, you'll get tracks displayed without filters.

Luckily my mixes are much smaller and this isn't a problem for me. But I find it hard to argue Tracktion is better in this regard.

[Lunch Money]

Sure, if you need to see all your mix channels at once, Logic's way will be way better. But I don't mix like that. I would never argue that the Tracktion way will accomplish what you want to accomplish better.



Greg

[IIRs]

Here's some "typical" arrange:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/LogicArrange.jpg
Sometimes I may hide all the items on the left, to have even more space for the pure arrangement stuff.
And here's the mixer of the same song:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/LogicMixer.jpg

Looking at those two screens, I have no idea which mixer channels correspond to which tracks. I have no clue by looking at the arrangment which tracks have a reverb applied, and therefore where most cpu could be saved by a freeze, or a render.

This screen however: http://www.platinumears.com/T2arrangement.jpg

Combines the information from BOTH your screenshots into about 1.5 screens (1280 x 1024) while also making it MUCH clearer how the two sets of information relate to each other. I can scroll to the bottom tracks with a single flick of my mouse-wheel, or squeeze all tracks onto one screen with a hot-key. I could send an archive of this mix to any other Tracktion user, and they would instantly know EXACTLY what's going on..

You have only confirmed me in my view that mixer pages are only for old-fashioned people who are set in their ways..

[braj]

Different strokes for different folks. Use the tool that is right for the job

[IIRs]

Here's a T2 screen with 24 tracks. Notice the slivers that are the volume filters, they are really hard to deal with like this. A scroll mouse helps (or a control surface) but you still can't get a visual idea what is going on. The meters are terrible at this size as well. The alternative is to have the tracks show at a larger size, but then you can't see everything in your composition.

You can switch between the two ways to view your edit in a fraction of a second..

[braj]

Here's a T2 screen with 24 tracks. Notice the slivers that are the volume filters, they are really hard to deal with like this. A scroll mouse helps (or a control surface) but you still can't get a visual idea what is going on. The meters are terrible at this size as well. The alternative is to have the tracks show at a larger size, but then you can't see everything in your composition.

You can switch between the two ways to view your edit in a fraction of a second..

The same could be said for screensets in Logic The benefit of the single window view isn't applicable to mixing then.

[Lunch Money]

I'm sure everybody agrees that it's a matter of style and preference, but although I didn't elaborate further, platinumears has expressed exactly why Sascha's screenshots made me do an about face on having begun to understand why people might like mixers.

I liked the theory, it all sounded good, and then when I saw the screenshots, I thought, "none of this relates to anything."

Now, I definitely understand that for Sascha, they DO relate. The map is in his head, and it's an efficient one for him. It was developed with refinement and practice. On the other hand, Tracktion's just makes sense to me without the need to scrutinize or explain anything.

Greg

[braj]

I could send an archive of this mix to any other Tracktion user, and they would instantly know EXACTLY what's going on..

Good point. Someone would have to dig how you set up your Logic environment.

[IIRs]

The same could be said for screensets in Logic The benefit of the single window view isn't applicable to mixing then.

There is no Logic screenshot (unless I am mistaken: please correct me if so) that could line up multiple volume automation curves with the volume controls they relate to..

[braj]

The same could be said for screensets in Logic The benefit of the single window view isn't applicable to mixing then.

There is no Logic screenshot (unless I am mistaken: please correct me if so) that could line up multiple volume automation curves with the volume controls they relate to..

I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying if you have to change views which may as well be changing screensets. That's all.

[IIRs]

I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying if you have to change views which may as well be changing screensets. That's all.

In Cubase, screensets need to be set up in advance. The first time you need your data arranged in a particular way, you will need to do it manually, and remember to save the screenset so you don't have to do it manually the second time. If subsequent arrangements are a little different to your usual working practise, parts of your saved screenset can become rather wrong..

.. maybe Logic does this better than Cubase (?) but it all seems MUCH more complicated and fussy and intimidating than a simple scroll with a mouse wheel, or a mouse wheel & modifier key combination.

[Sascha Franck]

Looking at those two screens, I have no idea which mixer channels correspond to which tracks.

Well, they're named the same. That's sufficient for me.

In addition, as soon as I select any track in my arrange, it'll be highlighted in the mixer as well.
Not much of a hassle IMO.

Further, Logic has the socalled "Track Mixer" which will allways follow your arrange track order. But I never use that one for the reasons mentioned before.

This screen however: http://www.platinumears.com/T2arrangement.jpg

Where's any busses on this one? And yes, that's not a trick question.