Black innovation?

[luCiPHer]

and i just don't like it when people don't get my point, no matter if it's my fault, their fault or no ones fault at all, but i guess you got it now and wen can both calm down

[cron]

and i just don't like it when people don't get my point, no matter if it's my fault

Amen!

[tee boy]

I thought you meant the Amen break for a minute then. Ok, I concede on that one - they can call who ever they want a thief imo.

[pooshka]

For all those who want to get all analytical/theoretical about culture industry you can read Theodor Adorno's collection of essays called "The Culture Industry" - this was written even before Elvis but his theories on culture industry are still spot on. For those with no time/patience to read it, I'll break it down to the simplest level and try to explain;

In capitalist society, 'free time' is systematically integrated into capitalist social mechanism together with 'work time'. In other words, 'free time' is not an 'away' time you get from capitalist 'work-life', but it is an extension of it. For example, if 'work time' process can be labeled as 'production', the 'free time' will become 'consumption' (personal note: this is scary when you think about how we spend our 'free time' doing 'music PRODUCTION' - in this free time activity we are both consuming the products of capitalist industry as well as mimicking the work procedure of capitalist industry).

'Free time' is juxtaposed to 'work time' in a way that it sustains the entire capitalist social mechanism as a wholistic system. Just think about how 'dutifully' we oblige to our modern views on how free time should be spent - in summer you have to go on beach holiday to get tans, in christmas you have to do this and that and buy this and that, on your pay day you stroll into record store and buy the music/movie DVDs you heard/saw BETWEEN THE COMMERCIALS

(that's another way of looking at it - rather than thinking how advertisement break up music program/TV shows, try to see it as music program/TV shows breaking up the series of advertisement - advertisement on TV isn't there to give you a break from your favourite TV shows - TV shows are there to give you a break from advertisements!)

Developing from this, 'dumbing down' of leisure activities can also be theorised; free time should be spent in a way that maximises efficiency of capitalist work time; i.e. it should relax you and recharge you so you will be more ready/more efficient when Monday comes and you get back to work (why do you think so many holiday adverts emphasise 'relaxation/vaccation away from work' and frequently mention 'recharge'? Recharge yourself for what?), or, it should at least drive you to consume and consume and consume as to sustain capitalist industry. (Adorno also talks something about the whole culture of 'wealth accumulation' that is also present in 'hobbies' such as stamp collecting)

Also, Adorno makes interesting comment about use of word 'hobby' - when you say 'oh this is my hobby' what do you mean? 'Hobby' as opposed to 'work'? If 'work' was to be taken professionaly and seriously, then how about 'hobby'? When does 'hobby' stop being 'hobby'? That's when this 'hobby' occupies the main part of your life innit? I.e. in the current common use of the word 'hobby', it is implied that your main focus of life is something that is juxtaposed against this 'free time activity' i.e. work.

What it boils down to is that culture industry propagates capitalist ideology, not necessarily in its 'content' (i.e. lyrical content in music/narrative content in movies), but by the way it structuraly integrates your 'free time' into the social mechanisms under which your work/industry runs in - capitalism.

Ok - how do I think this all fit in with the main question of this thread - "why have all the major music innovations in past half a century made by Blacks?"

I think I'd be safe in assuming that by 'blacks' here it's mostly meant 'blacks living in white world', e.g. US. I don't see anyone here talking about 'popular music innovations coming from Africa'.

So how do I think this all tie in together? Two ways I can think of

1) Blacks in US were not as much integrated capitalist mode of life as whites were - at least for some period of time. Sure there have been slavery and exploitation, but you can't really call that integration can you?

I think this means that at least for some period in 20th century, black 'free time' and 'leisure activities' incl. music making can be assumed to have taken place at least further away from the capitalist framework of culture industry as Adorno describes it. This line of thought seems to be even more compelling when you consider how with gradual integration of black music into capitalist society the innovations started to fade away (e.g. mainstream media hip hop nowadays) and the big commercial gangasta rappers nowadays are all endorsing capitalist values in their lyrics nowadays.

2) On a different note, Blacks in US were uprooted from their tradition and heritage from Africa when they were moved to US. While this is obviously a terrible thing, having been born in an extremely conservative/traditional/almost culturally fundamentalist society (Korea), I grew up to learn how much restrictions tradition/cultural pressure can put on your creativity.

Blacks who got moved to US were enslaved on one hand, but on the other hand, arguably, they were forced to be free from any cultural/traditional baggage. Obviously this was involuntary, and I stress again, I don't think it was a good thing. But i think there might be something there - if you are uprooted from where you were born and got moved to a completely foreign place with no prospect for cultural integration with your new 'home', it's kind of like a breeding ground for innovation isn't it?

Just my big two cents...

(edited for easier reading)

[intel]

you know, in all seriousness, I'd rather see more "black" artists returning to the roots of "black music" than a new innovation.

I'd shit a solid gold nugget if I met a young black person in my area who was familiar with James Brown or Robert Johnson. I'd be far more interested in a raw old school funk revival than seeing what suburban white kids are being sold via BET and MTV under the guise of "urban music". because in all honesty it may have been the white devil who turned black art into a commodity, but the black culture ate that shit up like there was no tomorrow. and in a culture of revolving-door pop culture icons, for some of these artists there is no tomorrow. forget the social injustice of the inner city gang rivalry or the callous dismissal of tupac's murder. pause for a second and think about how many young black people are steadily buying into the commodification of other young black people and the callousness with which they turn their backs when those icons lose their flavor-of-the-week status. as long as popular black culture buys into this passive-aggressive oppression you're not going to see any new innovations.

[Sascha Franck]

But no matter what, jazz and blues are firmly rooted in European music.

I tend to disagree on this one.
Jazz has been sort of "developed" out of blues music - and (ancient, historical, whatever you may call it) blues has got nothing to do with european music.
It's only that a) jazz has been analyzed after a while, following some european based music theory standards and b) some other portions of classical european based music have been "merged" into certain jazz styles.
The lydian chromatic concept by George Russel (something like *the* original jazz theory bible) is nothing else but standard european analysis adopted to suit jazz a bit better, the common II-V-1 stuff is almost the same as the old-ish Sp, D, T things, again adopted to be open for a somewhat easier way to analyze modulations.
I really don't think blues and jazz have too many european origins (at least not in their rudimental forms).

However, I simply don't care about skin colors, races and whatever, but I am eternally grateful that black music brought us a) blues and b) funk - oh well, and there's samba, indian stuff (I'd call that "black" to a certain extent as well) and the likes. All the stuff based on backbeats/offbeats. Nothing like the ONE-two-THREE-four european shit but a nice fat backbeat (or some loose 16th offs such as in latin music) instead.
I'm still getting sick when people are clapping on beats 1 and 3 over here, regardless whether it's the most backbeat based music ever. When I've been in the USA, everybody and his mum has been clapping on 2 and 4.
Admittedly (and fortunately) it's a bit different in southern europe (especially in spain and greece, probably one of the reasons I like those countries a lot).

[Lady J]

you know, in all seriousness, I'd rather see more "black" artists returning to the roots of "black music" than a new innovation.

I'd shit a solid gold nugget if I met a young black person in my area who was familiar with James Brown or Robert Johnson. I'd be far more interested in a raw old school funk revival than seeing what suburban white kids are being sold via BET and MTV under the guise of "urban music".

Nostalgia is as much of a killer of innovation as anything else...

as long as popular black culture buys into this passive-aggressive oppression you're not going to see any new innovations.

The image of your most public self.
Lift up your hearts.
Each new hour holds new chances
For new beginnings.
Do not be wedded forever
To fear, yoked eternally
To brutishness.
The horizon leans forward,
Offering you space to place new steps of change.
Here, on the pulse of this fine day
You may have the courage
To look up and out upon me,
The rock, the river, the tree, your country.


That was from Maya Angelou's - The Rock Cries Out To Us Today

meditate upon just that bit

[cron]

pooshka. Stunner of a post.

I thought you meant the Amen break for a minute then. Ok, I concede on that one - they can call who ever they want a thief imo.

I almost said Amen, Brother.

It's not a black and white (no pun intended) situation regarding the phrase "black music", I also concede. I personally think that (at present), with the situation regarding racism being as it is, the phrase 'black music' still has plenty of positivity in it. The only way a marginalised culture (be it black culture, gay culture, whatever) can advance its social standing is through visibility. Hiding never did anybody any good.

Except Lord Lucan.

[Lady J]

pooshka. Stunner of a post.

I thought you meant the Amen break for a minute then. Ok, I concede on that one - they can call who ever they want a thief imo.

I almost said Amen, Brother.

It's not a black and white (no pun intended) situation regarding the phrase "black music", I also concede. I personally think that (at present), with the situation regarding racism being as it is, the phrase 'black music' still has plenty of positivity in it. The only way a marginalised culture (be it black culture, gay culture, whatever) can advance its social standing is through visibility. Hiding never did anybody any good.

Except Lord Lucan.

Only gripe i have with this is that skin colour is self evident. Gayness isn't so the whole visability thing went out the window sometime in 1989.

Blacks are highly visibile in the US in many levels of society. That's not the problem.

[tee boy]

Pooshka,

Mate, that more like a whole dollar! Actually i find that stuff every interesting, and will read that book. I think you're second point is particularly relavent - African peasants had not heard Western music before and obviously were far more liberated to take it in new directions. That is definately how I consider early African American music. I think it would be safe to assume that the like of Joplin would have studied Western music heavily.

[dharmawan]

The image of your most public self.
Lift up your hearts.
Each new hour holds new chances
For new beginnings.
Do not be wedded forever
To fear, yoked eternally
To brutishness.
The horizon leans forward,
Offering you space to place new steps of change.
Here, on the pulse of this fine day
You may have the courage
To look up and out upon me,
The rock, the river, the tree, your country.

hey! i recognize that.. ltj bukem horizons right? i'll never forget that track as long as i live

[dharmawan]

pooshka is right on the money on a lot of things there.

[cron]

pooshka. Stunner of a post.

I thought you meant the Amen break for a minute then. Ok, I concede on that one - they can call who ever they want a thief imo.

I almost said Amen, Brother.

It's not a black and white (no pun intended) situation regarding the phrase "black music", I also concede. I personally think that (at present), with the situation regarding racism being as it is, the phrase 'black music' still has plenty of positivity in it. The only way a marginalised culture (be it black culture, gay culture, whatever) can advance its social standing is through visibility. Hiding never did anybody any good.

Except Lord Lucan.

Only gripe i have with this is that skin colour is self evident. Gayness isn't so the whole visability thing went out the window sometime in 1989.

Blacks are highly visibile in the US in many levels of society. That's not the problem.

Dodgy analogy, I apologise. I've actually made the very same point myself on several occasions when people have stated "homophobia is another form of racism".

I stand by the rest of my post though.

[Lady J]

The image of your most public self.
Lift up your hearts.
Each new hour holds new chances
For new beginnings.
Do not be wedded forever
To fear, yoked eternally
To brutishness.
The horizon leans forward,
Offering you space to place new steps of change.
Here, on the pulse of this fine day
You may have the courage
To look up and out upon me,
The rock, the river, the tree, your country.

hey! i recognize that.. ltj bukem horizons right? i'll never forget that track as long as i live

He is one deep brotha'. He, Kemet Crew and T-Power were the 'conciousness' in Drum n Bass.

[tee boy]

Sascha,

Thats interesting. I tend to see trad jazz as a progression from late romantic music. I cant listen to artists like Debussy without hearing it!

Also, I tend to think that anything with chords (based on thirds) and a 4/4 meter to be rooted in Western music. At least, I dont know any other cultures who could lay claim to these practices.

Im no music history guru though, so I'll quite happily be corrected on this.