I think mathematically it works out fine if one person ranks from 1-3 and another 3-5 - the sum will still put better-liked tracks on top. But I guess the person who chooses to use 1-3 ratings gets less "weight" in the overall score in that case.
One thought to reduce voting workload - not sure how easy to implement - is to assign each person a random group of 50% of the tracks to rate. They rate those, and not the other 50%, and as long as the tracks are shared evenly among everybody, there should be enough ratings overall to get a fair result.
One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread
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- KVRist
- 110 posts since 1 Nov, 2012
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- KVRAF
- 2228 posts since 29 Sep, 2011
I like the new voting system, apparently I cannot lose! Muahahaha!!
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- KVRist
- 110 posts since 1 Nov, 2012
OopsSJMmusic wrote:(please no random track selection for everyone...)
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- KVRAF
- 2725 posts since 19 Dec, 2010 from North America
Well said IrionIrionDaRonin wrote:...........
Have a nice day
One Synth Challenge: https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Exactly. But also the 1-5 ranks but with a heavily 'weighted' scale (lots of 1s, few 5s - not much in between).QuadrupleA wrote:I think mathematically it works out fine if one person ranks from 1-3 and another 3-5 - the sum will still put better-liked tracks on top. But I guess the person who chooses to use 1-3 ratings gets less "weight" in the overall score in that case.
Maybe the best would be that all have the same amount of points to give away, (still all gets points) but hard to implement and makes voting more tricky too with constant "checksum error" messages etc.
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- KVRist
- 279 posts since 13 May, 2003
This was my first time voting, and I'm not totally satisfied with the way I did it.
I voted mostly on a musical (and subjective) level, and didn't factor the production quality enough. Which isn't completely fair (since I was blown away by the high level of production even for some tracks I didn't particularly care about musically)
I could do with a double scale of 1-5, one for musical enjoyment, the other purely for production.
But I guess it would complicate matters even more ?
I voted mostly on a musical (and subjective) level, and didn't factor the production quality enough. Which isn't completely fair (since I was blown away by the high level of production even for some tracks I didn't particularly care about musically)
I could do with a double scale of 1-5, one for musical enjoyment, the other purely for production.
But I guess it would complicate matters even more ?
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- KVRist
- 80 posts since 13 Feb, 2011 from Düsseldorf, NRW, Germany
Well, you could just let everyone vote how that person likes (even on different scales) and then divide all votes by the total points given - at least that should work in theory, I don't know how well that will work with the current Google Spreadsheet solution - but implementing a very simple voting program/site should be a manageable task, if that would become necessary or solve many problems (like the voting for yourself or even if I hated it, random track selection for everyone).V'ger wrote:Maybe the best would be that all have the same amount of points to give away, (still all gets points) but hard to implement and makes voting more tricky too with constant "checksum error" messages etc.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3922 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
Hm, not a bad idea with an equalizer factor like that. Might even be possible to automate with spreadsheet formulas somehow.
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- KVRian
- 925 posts since 13 Jan, 2013 from United States
I am new to the OSC -- only entered once before and again this month. Although it would probalby complicate things, I think that there are two aspects of the competition that should be graded separately -- one: how well the synth and it's sound making capabilities are used, and 2) composition and production. There were some tracks last month that were stylistically pretty far from what I like, but there was no question that the producers really pushed Podolski's sound potential in a fantastic way. I think that producers who take the time to dig in and learn the synth, and try to push the envelope (so to speak) should deserve to be rewarded with points, even if their composition and production isn't great. A producer that simply relies on presets should not get as much credit. Producers who do a great job with composition and production should be likewise rewarded. It's like on a food competition giving points for taste and points for presentation.
Like I said, I don't wish to complicate things, but it seems fair to acknowledge that there are a couple of important aspects of producing a song with one synth and that is somehow factored in.
Sorry if I'm proposing a complication -- I think this competition is fantastic and have really enjoyed being forced to explore a couple of synths in depth -- it's good for mental health, gets the creative juices flowing and is simply lots of fun, so thanks for running the competition!
Like I said, I don't wish to complicate things, but it seems fair to acknowledge that there are a couple of important aspects of producing a song with one synth and that is somehow factored in.
Sorry if I'm proposing a complication -- I think this competition is fantastic and have really enjoyed being forced to explore a couple of synths in depth -- it's good for mental health, gets the creative juices flowing and is simply lots of fun, so thanks for running the competition!
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- KVRAF
- 2725 posts since 19 Dec, 2010 from North America
This was something I have been thinking about since 2011ontrackp wrote:I am new to the OSC -- only entered once before and again this month. Although it would probalby complicate things, I think that there are two aspects of the competition that should be graded separately -- one: how well the synth and it's sound making capabilities are used, and 2) composition and production. There were some tracks last month that were stylistically pretty far from what I like, but there was no question that the producers really pushed Podolski's sound potential in a fantastic way. I think that producers who take the time to dig in and learn the synth, and try to push the envelope (so to speak) should deserve to be rewarded with points, even if their composition and production isn't great. A producer that simply relies on presets should not get as much credit. Producers who do a great job with composition and production should be likewise rewarded. It's like on a food competition giving points for taste and points for presentation.
Like I said, I don't wish to complicate things, but it seems fair to acknowledge that there are a couple of important aspects of producing a song with one synth and that is somehow factored in.
Sorry if I'm proposing a complication -- I think this competition is fantastic and have really enjoyed being forced to explore a couple of synths in depth -- it's good for mental health, gets the creative juices flowing and is simply lots of fun, so thanks for running the competition!
One Synth Challenge: https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
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- KVRian
- 1494 posts since 13 Sep, 2012
Umm...why?ontrackp wrote:A producer that simply relies on presets should not get as much credit.
Try to make the distinction between "producer" and "artist". Producers the equivalent of a film director, artists are actors following their own written script. Good / bad production shouldn't be the deciding factor - a song can be well written/composed even if the recording sounds like crap, and the other way round: good production will not make a crappy song great - it might trick the listener, but doesn't add any real substance to it.
On the other hand, a tomato is just a tomato. What makes a chef great is his ability to use the very same things you may have in your own fridge and make a really delicious dish - you don't see them creating new vegetables/fruits/etc everyday, right?
So IMO splitting the song ratings into even more categories / sheets would only complicate things but won't solve much. Let's keep it simple and friendly
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- KVRAF
- 2725 posts since 19 Dec, 2010 from North America
Presets are fine... EVERYONE JUST MAKE MUSIC YOU LIKE!
I was thinking about bringing this up. But I realized the culture of OSC has been about music foremost. So it does not seem to be based solely on the sound design skills, but music first. So good melodies, chord changes, uplifting breakdowns, great percussion, using presets in a creative way, 80's emulations, JMJ / vangelis styles, video game styles are all rewarded by the votes. And that's fine.
I realized this after making my OSC#33 entry, "Final Report" which is not really a song, but almost 90% FX sound design + effects. All made with custom patches, and some layering:
https://soundcloud.com/bjporter/bjporte ... rt-exhibit
I realized that in the OSC, the music is a critical element.
I was thinking about bringing this up. But I realized the culture of OSC has been about music foremost. So it does not seem to be based solely on the sound design skills, but music first. So good melodies, chord changes, uplifting breakdowns, great percussion, using presets in a creative way, 80's emulations, JMJ / vangelis styles, video game styles are all rewarded by the votes. And that's fine.
I realized this after making my OSC#33 entry, "Final Report" which is not really a song, but almost 90% FX sound design + effects. All made with custom patches, and some layering:
https://soundcloud.com/bjporter/bjporte ... rt-exhibit
I realized that in the OSC, the music is a critical element.
One Synth Challenge: https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/about
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- KVRian
- 925 posts since 13 Jan, 2013 from United States
The distinction between producer and artist has blurred thanks to the huge technology paradigm shift over the last 15 or 20 years. There are vast numbers of "artist/producers" now that the cost of entry to create professional sounding music has come down to literally a few hundred dollars. To be practical, it's becoming almost impossible to separate the two roles - especially at the amateur level.
There are countless threads on this forum and others that discuss the workflow and challenges of having to be both the artist and producer, and the OSC is pretty much the poster child for having to combine both skills. Reading through the evaluations of last months contest, I think figuring out how to rate songs based on either sound-making, production value and/or composition was a recurring theme. Separating how well someone utilizes the synth from how good a composer or producer they are just seems like a fair (and friendly) way of being able to acknowledge both ends of the spectrum.
Personally, I put a lot of value of digging into a device and programming new sounds, so I want to be able to reward someone who does that well, even if their composition or production is not good or turns me off stylistically. Alternatively, if someone sends in a great song that is extremely well produced, but uses only presets, then they have not really learned much about using the synth, but they should be recognized for producing a great piece of music, as it's impossible to disconnect the inspiration that the sound plays in the creative process. They may also know things about production that everyone could benefit from by their sharing.
I don't understand why you suggest that voting on use of the synth and composition/production would be unfriendly -- one of the things that has impressed me the most about joining the competition (although I'm a newbie) is how open and friendly this community is. There are thousands of people sitting by themselves in their basements attempting to make great music, but in a bubble. This competition, and this whole community, gives us all a chance to share what we're doing, comment on it , share advice, have some fun and hopefully learn something in the process.
There are countless threads on this forum and others that discuss the workflow and challenges of having to be both the artist and producer, and the OSC is pretty much the poster child for having to combine both skills. Reading through the evaluations of last months contest, I think figuring out how to rate songs based on either sound-making, production value and/or composition was a recurring theme. Separating how well someone utilizes the synth from how good a composer or producer they are just seems like a fair (and friendly) way of being able to acknowledge both ends of the spectrum.
Personally, I put a lot of value of digging into a device and programming new sounds, so I want to be able to reward someone who does that well, even if their composition or production is not good or turns me off stylistically. Alternatively, if someone sends in a great song that is extremely well produced, but uses only presets, then they have not really learned much about using the synth, but they should be recognized for producing a great piece of music, as it's impossible to disconnect the inspiration that the sound plays in the creative process. They may also know things about production that everyone could benefit from by their sharing.
I don't understand why you suggest that voting on use of the synth and composition/production would be unfriendly -- one of the things that has impressed me the most about joining the competition (although I'm a newbie) is how open and friendly this community is. There are thousands of people sitting by themselves in their basements attempting to make great music, but in a bubble. This competition, and this whole community, gives us all a chance to share what we're doing, comment on it , share advice, have some fun and hopefully learn something in the process.
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- KVRAF
- 2725 posts since 19 Dec, 2010 from North America
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- KVRian
- 628 posts since 5 Mar, 2011 from Austria
When we have to vote if someone uses only presets or if we hear his own sound creation, we have to listen to all presets and soundbanks available on the web?
How else could I know if this sound does allready exist. I can hardly imagine to hear every single sound in an arrangement so exactly that I use this information for voting!
And on the other side. When I do my sounds from the scratch, my results can easily sound similar to an existing preset somewhere.
What I can imagine is to separate the voting between composition and the technical aspects like mixing and mastering. I use allways both for my voting. But honestly speaking, the personal taste for the hole track allways wins!
How else could I know if this sound does allready exist. I can hardly imagine to hear every single sound in an arrangement so exactly that I use this information for voting!
And on the other side. When I do my sounds from the scratch, my results can easily sound similar to an existing preset somewhere.
What I can imagine is to separate the voting between composition and the technical aspects like mixing and mastering. I use allways both for my voting. But honestly speaking, the personal taste for the hole track allways wins!
soundcloud.com/photonic-1