Camel Audio ceasing sales? [Update: CA acquired by Apple]

[TonyVegas]

The bottom line is that someone still owns the intellectual property. If you didn't license the legal use of it then what you are doing is technically illegal.

Can I buy that license from somebody who purchased it from CA.

That's all I'm asking for crying out loud. Sheeesh.

Well that would be governed by the EULA that the originally purchaser was under.

[Burillo]

No, I want it, I'm willing to pay for it, why won't you sell it to me?

So I'm screwed because I just happen to be late to the party?

But okay, let's just look at this from a legal standpoint.

July 7th comes. The company closes its site. Nobody has bought them out. Alchemy is officially a dead product. The company itself dissolves. It no longer exists.

If I get a copy from a 3rd party, is it illegal with the company no longer in existence? I mean it's not like there is anybody in existence any longer to even sue me or bring charges against me. They no longer exist.

Camel Audio doesn't make law. the fact that they can't sue you or don't exist doesn't mean it's legal now.

This is what I'm trying to get at. What are the legal ramifications after July 7 if the company goes out of business and nobody buys them?

again, absence of legal ramifications doesn't mean it's legal.

that said, i agree with you that this is a "letter vs. intent" issue. you can argue whether it's morally wrong or okay to do it, and whether it should or should not be legal. what you can't argue about is whether if it *is* legal.

[VitaminD]

Ah, yes, that argument. 'I want it so I am entitled to have it'.

Or more like "now that I have an excuse that I feel is a little better than the usual ones I think I'm going to pirate it".

No, I'm willing to pay for it. Can I legally buy it from a 3rd party?

No. There is no means to transfer the license legally anymore. You are just locked out from the software.

We, legal license holders, are now members of the CA license owners club. No new members allowed.

[wagtunes]

Why then, as a consumer, should we care where we get a copy from if the company itself no longer cares?

What exactly are you a consumer of, then? Stuff you think you're entitled to for free merely because you didnt actually buy it when it was available?
You didnt care enough to buy it from them, why should the company care about you in the first place?

You're assuming that everybody had a chance to buy the software when it was available. What about people who just got their first computer yesterday or didn't have the money prior?

If somebody wants to, in good faith, buy their software, which is technically available (I mean it still exists, right) if they refuse to sell it to me, why should I care where I get it from?

I'm willing to say to CA right now, "Take my money." If they refuse to do that, why should I care where i get their software from? They are not even giving me an alternative for another software like when Adobe discontinued CS 3 and told me I had to buy CS 6 even though I was a CS 3 owner and lost my original install. They refused to replace it but at least gave me another option. With CA, I now have no other option but to do without the software.

Again, if they are going out of business, refuse to take my money, why should I care where I get their software from, if I even can and get it working?

Ah, yes, that argument. 'I want it so I am entitled to have it'.

No, I want it, I'm willing to pay for it, why won't you sell it to me?

So I'm screwed because I just happen to be late to the party?

But okay, let's just look at this from a legal standpoint.

July 7th comes. The company closes its site. Nobody has bought them out. Alchemy is officially a dead product. The company itself dissolves. It no longer exists.

If I get a copy from a 3rd party, is it illegal with the company no longer in existence? I mean it's not like there is anybody in existence any longer to even sue me or bring charges against me. They no longer exist.

This is what I'm trying to get at. What are the legal ramifications after July 7 if the company goes out of business and nobody buys them?

And will you please keep your snide "I've been here 13 years as a member" comments to yourself. They don't intimidate me.

Check " abandoned software" . Any 3rd party is out of the question.

Okay, here it is.

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Often, no entity defends the copyright if such software is put onto abandonware websites. An example of this is Digital Research's original PL/I compiler for DOS. The rights to the software cannot be bought by another company; therefore, there is no possibility for a lawsuit.

So if CA goes out of business and abandons this software, there can be no lawsuit brought forth for purchasing a 3rd party copy.

Thank you.

[Numanoid]

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Go easy on this issue, there was a major battle in the forum just a month ago concering the AlgoMusic plugs

[fmr]

Ah...if i could import my samples into Zebra 2 all my dreams came true. I have an interesting tiny iOS synth where i can use up to 32 sound sources/samples for one patch. It can't sadly interpolate just blend between them but this it can do it in any way i could imagine and it let me use infinite modulation if i want.
Could tell me someone if there is anything like that in the desktop world. I really need such stuff for sound design. Since i'm still new in the desktop world and had big hopes for Alchemy 2 in terms of sample manipulation, blending and morphing i think my search will start new...

I think the already mentioned Mach Five and HALion 5 will be be suitable for what you want. Kontakt too. And Lin Plug CRX, and many other samplers or sample based synths available. Be aware there is nothing in the mobile world that you can't find (with much more power) in the desktop world. Maybe not exactly matching, but similar.

Well this much I will say (hopefully it's allowed):

No. Kontakt, HALion, Mach Five etc do not represent anywhere near suitable replacements for Alchemy 2. Wish you guys will have the chance at some point to hear just how good the morphing additive/spectral engine thing got. We are talking Kyma levels of possibilities here.

Ahem... I was suggesting those for replacing the mentioned "interesting tiny iOS synth where i can use up to 32 sound sources/samples for one patch. It can't sadly interpolate just blend between them but this it can do it in any way i could imagine and it let me use infinite modulation if i want". NOT to replace Alchemy. I have Alchemy since day one, therefore, I know pretty well what its capable of... OK?

[whyterabbyt]

Okay, here it is.

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Often, no entity defends the copyright if such software is put onto abandonware websites. An example of this is Digital Research's original PL/I compiler for DOS. The rights to the software cannot be bought by another company; therefore, there is no possibility for a lawsuit.

So if CA goes out of business and abandons this software, there can be no lawsuit brought forth for purchasing a 3rd party copy.

Thank you.

Copyright does not dissipate in the absence of a commercial business.

[TonyVegas]

That statement says that there can be no legal means of selling the property, therefore there could be no disputes over sales, as there would be no valid/legal sales at all.

[wagtunes]

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Go easy on this issue, there was a major battle in the forum just a month ago concering the AlgoMusic plugs

I'm just trying to understand what the difference is between somebody selling me their ARP 2600 (ARP has long been out of business) or somebody selling me their Camel Audio Alchemy. As long as they actually transfer the license to me and remove the software from their PC, I don't see the difference.

[VitaminD]

What exactly are you a consumer of, then? Stuff you think you're entitled to for free merely because you didnt actually buy it when it was available?
You didnt care enough to buy it from them, why should the company care about you in the first place?

You're assuming that everybody had a chance to buy the software when it was available. What about people who just got their first computer yesterday or didn't have the money prior?

If somebody wants to, in good faith, buy their software, which is technically available (I mean it still exists, right) if they refuse to sell it to me, why should I care where I get it from?

I'm willing to say to CA right now, "Take my money." If they refuse to do that, why should I care where i get their software from? They are not even giving me an alternative for another software like when Adobe discontinued CS 3 and told me I had to buy CS 6 even though I was a CS 3 owner and lost my original install. They refused to replace it but at least gave me another option. With CA, I now have no other option but to do without the software.

Again, if they are going out of business, refuse to take my money, why should I care where I get their software from, if I even can and get it working?

Ah, yes, that argument. 'I want it so I am entitled to have it'.

No, I want it, I'm willing to pay for it, why won't you sell it to me?

So I'm screwed because I just happen to be late to the party?

But okay, let's just look at this from a legal standpoint.

July 7th comes. The company closes its site. Nobody has bought them out. Alchemy is officially a dead product. The company itself dissolves. It no longer exists.

If I get a copy from a 3rd party, is it illegal with the company no longer in existence? I mean it's not like there is anybody in existence any longer to even sue me or bring charges against me. They no longer exist.

This is what I'm trying to get at. What are the legal ramifications after July 7 if the company goes out of business and nobody buys them?

And will you please keep your snide "I've been here 13 years as a member" comments to yourself. They don't intimidate me.

Check " abandoned software" . Any 3rd party is out of the question.

Okay, here it is.

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Often, no entity defends the copyright if such software is put onto abandonware websites. An example of this is Digital Research's original PL/I compiler for DOS. The rights to the software cannot be bought by another company; therefore, there is no possibility for a lawsuit.

So if CA goes out of business and abandons this software, there can be no lawsuit brought forth for purchasing a 3rd party copy.

Thank you.

There are a lot of assumptions on the future in that argument.

It appears, to me at least, you came into this argument with your mind already made up on the outcome for you and simply wanted others to confirm what your mind had already made up.

[trimph1]

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Go easy on this issue, there was a major battle in the forum just a month ago concering the AlgoMusic plugs

That thread had a lot of hoohaw...

[VitaminD]

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Go easy on this issue, there was a major battle in the forum just a month ago concering the AlgoMusic plugs

I'm just trying to understand what the difference is between somebody selling me their ARP 2600 (ARP has long been out of business) or somebody selling me their Camel Audio Alchemy. As long as they actually transfer the license to me and remove the software from their PC, I don't see the difference.

But this situation cannot occur in reality. CamelAudio had to transfer the license code to the new party's identity. CamelAudio no longer exists. Therefore, transfers of licenses cannot occur.

[frejahel]

At least Camel Audio is providing an option to backup what I have already purchased with regards to the desktop version. It's been no problem for me to keep backups of this anyway though.

But, the mobile version? I recently re-installed my iPad and now when I try to restore my purchases in mobile Alchemy I can't do so (I purchased the full package; pro + all sound libraries). It's one thing to purchase something that may not be usable in the future, but not to be able to use what I purchased on my current system? Besides, unless I use non-Apple software like iFunbox, how am I to even backup these things? It's not exactly user friendly (and I always keep two backups of everything I purchase on my desktop mac).

[beely]

Just because a company doesn't exist anymore, does not mean the IP is not still owned by somebody.

It is not yours to do with as you wish, and if you're well, too late to buy a product, you're too late. I still have people approach me from time to time asking for my copy of Keymap Pro (which I won't let leave my hands until I'm long dead) because they want it but can't buy it.

That's life - you can't always get what you want. Especially for free, at a time most convenient for you...

[whyterabbyt]

Commercial software owned by a company no longer in business

Go easy on this issue, there was a major battle in the forum just a month ago concering the AlgoMusic plugs

I'm just trying to understand what the difference is between somebody selling me their ARP 2600 (ARP has long been out of business) or somebody selling me their Camel Audio Alchemy. As long as they actually transfer the license to me and remove the software from their PC, I don't see the difference.

well, for a start, you're assuming they have the right to transfer the license to you. its interesting that you seem to be implying that they get that right in the absence of CA, rather than the more likely scenario that in the absence of CA they dont have anyone to request the right from.

Alchemy is watermarked with the original owner's name and address; I think that clarified that license transfers are not intended to be done without the intervention of CA.