Hartmann R.I.P

[Radek]

I was testing the actual "hardware" Neuron at a store. I was disgusted by it!

Let me explain:
A crappy keyboard I was scared to play a harder.
A long times between patch changes.
A long boot time.
A not so good patches from a musical standpoint. Don't understand me wrong - some of them were really interesting but it's an all about them.
A small display for a such comprehensive synth...
Puny polyphony unless of course you are just enjoying a synth for a sake of itself.
The big price tag, far too big.

Imho I just summed all of this well.

Well, quite obviously your preferences are clear. Lots of polyphony and nice presets.

And these are a bad things? How could I be satisfied with a synth with insufficient polyphony so I couldn't play without apparent note stealing?

For the presets - many of them are pretty good on the Neuron actually but still... I don't know how it's better than a K5000 or a fs1r, or a Cameleon or many other advanced synths. The Neuron being the most sophisticated of all? Perhaps it is but then this mean the mountain had born a mouse.

This obviously isn't the synth for you, nor would a Kyma be a synth for you, nor would a modular be a synth for you. But, damn, you summed all of this so well.

Yes, obviously it is not for me. For a reason alone that its keys could broke after of two weeks of my using (I like weighted keys). The other ones are the Cronox3 and the fs1r are giving me already 1000s of possibilities. I also would prefer the K5000 over the Neuron. But this is just me.

But it's not a synth that was intended to maximize polyphony at the expense of its soundscapes. It is not that kind of keyboard. You won't get huge numbers of voices on a Kyma either, but you don't hear people knocking it for that reason. That just isn't the concept.

The fact that you are looking for max polyphony and nice presets is fine - but it just seems ridiculous to so totally slam the synth because it doesn't quite fit your exact idea of what a synth should be.

It's hilarious that you bring up Cameleon. I think that the sound quality of Cameleon is pretty bad. Have you tried Cube? In any case, the vs sounds so much better than Cameleon that the fact that you bring up Cameleon suggests that you really don't have any idea of what it is like to play a Neuron. The fs1r is a GREAT synth (just got mine), but it is an entirely different type of animal and sounds nothing like the neuron. And sure - it is fine to choose the k5000 over the neuron. But to so totally slam it like you have, while not having the slightest clue as to what it really is, is pretty damn laughable.

Ok, I shouldn't had slammed it so hard. However I disagree about "not having a clue" as what it is. I was reading the various reviews, the technical explanations and such. Then personally I reviewed it in a shop and had been underwhelmed.

So sorry to expressing it so harshly. I'm sure someone will find some uses for the Neuron and to the awesome results.

[Ben [Camel Audio]]

Hi,

I feel sorry for the people who were involved with this project - they seem like really intelligent guys. I have some idea of the amount of sacrifices - personal, financial - that they must have made to create the Neuron, and it must be gutting for it to end like this. I do of course also have sympathy for those who have bought the product and found that it didn't work correctly on their system and are now left without support.

It's hilarious that you bring up Cameleon. I think that the sound quality of Cameleon is pretty bad. In any case, the vs sounds so much better than Cameleon that the fact that you bring up Cameleon suggests that you really don't have any idea of what it is like to play a Neuron.

That is your opinion, and you are of course perfectly entitled to it. Where I take issue is that you are implying that this is somehow the objective truth on the matter. Different people take different views.

For example, BT, a fellow Neuron owner -http://www.btmusic.com - takes a very different view. He's a professional composer who does a wide range of film soundtrack work, amongst other things. Here's what he said, in an unpromted, statement.

Camelon 5000, is the most impressive, liquid, evocative sounding soft synth I have ever heard. I will play my Neuron and then Camelon and can't figure out why they dont charge 5 grand for it.

I've never paid him anything BTW. Also, Hans Zimmer - http://www.hans-zimmer.com - who was also involved with the Neuron and can have any piece of gear he wants, took the time to come up to me at last NAMM and say that he really liked Cameleon and had used it and would be using it on various film projects. (In a somewhat embarrassing move I didn't recognise him, and so intially carried on my conversation with someone else, before figuring out who he was and having a chat. I've just seen he did the soundtrack for the new Wallace and Gromit film - I'll have to keep my ears open for signs of a Cameleon ).

As I say, I'm not saying that your view of Cameleon vs. Neuron is wrong. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who own a Neuron keyboard who love their Cameleons

Thanks
Ben

[Scot Solida]

You won't get huge numbers of voices on a Kyma either,

That really depends on what the voices are doing and how many DSP cards you have, surely?

Yeah. With seven cards, I get a lot of polyphony, even for complex things. Next month, my Kyma gets maxed out, so I shouldn't have too many worries. Still, Kyma is like any other software modular in that you might not get the same amount of polyphony you would expect from an optimised synth performing the same tasks.

Mind you, they ALL have more polyphony than our modulars...

[droolmaster0]

Seems perfectly agreeable to me, that one should slam a synth because it doesn't fit one's needs. Some might say it's quite logical in fact.

The two demo's posted earlier. You could get the same sound from Reason 3.0, and that costs significantly less than the Nueron.

Put it this way: If you like to pay for WORDS in a synth, buy a Neuron. If you like to pay for SOUNDS in a synth, buy something a bit less high-brow.

That's pretty hilarious. No - I don't think that it's correct to call a synth a piece of shit because it doesn't fit your particular needs. I think that some understanding of objectivity implies that you should also understand that a product may fit some other needs, and legitimate ones, very well.

And, if you really want to claim that Reason sounds like a Neuron - well, again, that's pretty hilarious. It's just totally incorrect. If you want to base that on a couple of mp3's then, say something like, 'maybe what I heard wasn't representative, but I didn't think it sounded very interesting...' etc. But surely you know that there is often more to a product than this or that random mp3 that someone has posted. Or the presets for that matter. maybe you don't know that.

And this that last comment is just so lame. What you suggest is that the Neuron is all hype. That's very far from the truth. Jane, you're an ignorant slut.

[droolmaster0]

You won't get huge numbers of voices on a Kyma either,

That really depends on what the voices are doing and how many DSP cards you have, surely?

Well, LOL - if you want to use a Kyma as a rompler, I guess you might be able to. But if you're using it as intended, I don't think that even with 12 cards you'll wind up getting polyphony near what some current workstations get, i.e. if you are rating a synth on its polyphony, the Kyma would come out as ridiculously overpriced.

[munchkin]

I'm sure the neuron can create some nifty sounds but then so can a lot of synths. The interesting thing is that all the puters on Sonics Arts courses have Max/MSP loaded and ready to go. When it comes to experimenting in sound the neuron isn't at the forefront. I think £400 spent on Max/MSP or even Reaktor is money better spent when it comes to sound design. In which case I'm not sure where the neuron fits in to the sound designers arsenal of tools. Arse and tool in the same sentence - genius!

[shamann]

What was the polyphony limit of the Neuron?

[droolmaster0]

Hi,

I feel sorry for the people who were involved with this project - they seem like really intelligent guys. I have some idea of the amount of sacrifices - personal, financial - that they must have made to create the Neuron, and it must be gutting for it to end like this. I do of course also have sympathy for those who have bought the product and found that it didn't work correctly on their system and are now left without support.

It's hilarious that you bring up Cameleon. I think that the sound quality of Cameleon is pretty bad. In any case, the vs sounds so much better than Cameleon that the fact that you bring up Cameleon suggests that you really don't have any idea of what it is like to play a Neuron.

That is your opinion, and you are of course perfectly entitled to it. Where I take issue is that you are implying that this is somehow the objective truth on the matter. Different people take different views.

For example, BT, a fellow Neuron owner -http://www.btmusic.com - takes a very different view. He's a professional composer who does a wide range of film soundtrack work, amongst other things. Here's what he said, in an unpromted, statement.

Camelon 5000, is the most impressive, liquid, evocative sounding soft synth I have ever heard. I will play my Neuron and then Camelon and can't figure out why they dont charge 5 grand for it.

I've never paid him anything BTW. Also, Hans Zimmer - http://www.hans-zimmer.com - who was also involved with the Neuron and can have any piece of gear he wants, took the time to come up to me at last NAMM and say that he really liked Cameleon and had used it and would be using it on various film projects. (In a somewhat embarrassing move I didn't recognise him, and so intially carried on my conversation with someone else, before figuring out who he was and having a chat. I've just seen he did the soundtrack for the new Wallace and Gromit film - I'll have to keep my ears open for signs of a Cameleon ).

As I say, I'm not saying that your view of Cameleon vs. Neuron is wrong. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who own a Neuron keyboard who love their Cameleons

Thanks
Ben

hmmm - I started out by saying that my opinion of Cameleon was 'my opinion'. And the quote by BT sounds just as unqualified as mine, but that's ok since he is praising Cameleon?

In any case, obviously there are people who like Cameleon. I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Why is it that I seem to run into quotes by BT praising all sorts of stuff to the skys. I just don't take these celebrity endorsements, or magazine reviews, for that matter, very seriously.

[Amberience]

Seems perfectly agreeable to me, that one should slam a synth because it doesn't fit one's needs. Some might say it's quite logical in fact.

The two demo's posted earlier. You could get the same sound from Reason 3.0, and that costs significantly less than the Nueron.

Put it this way: If you like to pay for WORDS in a synth, buy a Neuron. If you like to pay for SOUNDS in a synth, buy something a bit less high-brow.

That's pretty hilarious. No - I don't think that it's correct to call a synth a piece of shit because it doesn't fit your particular needs. I think that some understanding of objectivity implies that you should also understand that a product may fit some other needs, and legitimate ones, very well.

And, if you really want to claim that Reason sounds like a Neuron - well, again, that's pretty hilarious. It's just totally incorrect. If you want to base that on a couple of mp3's then, say something like, 'maybe what I heard wasn't representative, but I didn't think it sounded very interesting...' etc. But surely you know that there is often more to a product than this or that random mp3 that someone has posted. Or the presets for that matter. maybe you don't know that.

And this that last comment is just so lame. What you suggest is that the Neuron is all hype. That's very far from the truth. Jane, you're an ignorant slut.

Well Tarzan, you're a barking mad old fool.

Firstly, did I said that Neuron sounded like Reason? No, I said you could make those mp3 demo's posted earlier easily in Reason.

Secondly, objectivity is irrelevant when people are thinking of buying a synth. Any synth, not just the Nueron. People can't go on what other people say about it, man, that's not objectivity!

What matters most in a synth is whether the person trying it likes the sounds they are producing with it. What you think or she thinks or he thinks or they thinks... that just doesn't matter.

Now go back to the kitchen Tarzan and make me a nice cuppa tea, my thong is itching again.

[droolmaster0]

You won't get huge numbers of voices on a Kyma either,

That really depends on what the voices are doing and how many DSP cards you have, surely?

Yeah. With seven cards, I get a lot of polyphony, even for complex things. Next month, my Kyma gets maxed out, so I shouldn't have too many worries. Still, Kyma is like any other software modular in that you might not get the same amount of polyphony you would expect from an optimised synth performing the same tasks.

Mind you, they ALL have more polyphony than our modulars...

So, you're telling me you get, like 75 note polyphony with complex sounds? I really doubt that. I have 4 cards, and I just can't imagine that at all. Perhaps by 'lots of polyphony' you mean, lots of polyphony for these types of complex sounds, or some such qualification.

Note that my original statement referred to "huge" numbers of voices, which was in the context of polyphony as a major factor when judging a synth like a Kyma or Neuron which is generating complex, cpu intensive sounds.

[whyterabbyt]

Well, LOL - if you want to use a Kyma as a rompler, I guess you might be able to.

What does that have to do with it?

How many voices could you get with 4-op FM for example?

But if you're using it as intended,

As who intended?

I thought it was a fully-programmable system, intended to allow the user as much flexibility as possible.

I don't think that even with 12 cards you'll wind up getting polyphony near what some current workstations get,

Is that the yardstick for 'huge' then? What polyphony do workstations get? And what kind of workstation? One of those rompler types?

Symbolic say

You can use 60 voices of samples on a basic system, and a fully loaded system gives you 545 voices.

Is 545 not 'huge' then?

i.e. if you are rating a synth on its polyphony, the Kyma would come out as ridiculously overpriced.

Not compared to, say, a Buchla 200.

[shamann]

The interesting thing is that all the puters on Sonics Arts courses have Max/MSP loaded and ready to go. When it comes to experimenting in sound the neuron isn't at the forefront.

That has a lot more to do with Max's market position then its capabilities. Sonically, it isn't head and shoulders above a lot of other great things. You probably won't find a Kyma on every computer at uni, either.

In which case I'm not sure where the neuron fits in to the sound designers arsenal of tools.

It fits in as a boutique, specialized tool. It was never aimed at educational programs or mass marketing, the price tag alone makes that obvious. That's a big reason why in terms of marketing, the VS was a terrible idea.

Having tried the Neuron and having heard a lot of demo clips, I have never heard anything that makes it unique. It isn't even the only synth based on neural network models, there's this thing, too (but it's price tag is just as ugly). But the Neuron was designed differently than a lot of things, so maybe it let you access certain sounds in an easier fashion. The Neuron certainly has a neatness factor to it.

[cptgone]

Cool it guys, isn't one RIP enough

[whyterabbyt]

Note that my original statement referred to "huge" numbers of voices, which was in the context of polyphony as a major factor when judging a synth like a Kyma or Neuron which is generating complex, cpu intensive sounds.

Sounds that'd be like, oh, 20 or 30 voices, then. In "the context of of polyphony as a major factor when judging a synth like a Kyma or Neuron which is generating complex, cpu intensive sounds". Being as thats pretty 'huge' compared to the Neuron which I believe had 8-voice polyphony at maximum complexity.

[munchkin]

Hmm...the Cameleon vs Neuron thing. It seems that the cachet of a thing is considered greater by some people according to the price tag rather than actual capability. I think this is at the nub of this debate and that's why there's a misanthropic delight in sniggering at the demise of the Neuron. It's not big, it's not clever but it's kind of understandable.