Were the good old days better

[goldbaker]

I couldn't resist joining in? Good old days better? Time will tell, of course. People are only just getting used to the tools that are now available. A lot can happen in five or ten years, which is really about the amount of time that computers have come to the forefront in composition of music. This discussion is talking about the evolution of music over decades or centuries. I think it is very exciting that tools are now available that, when, in the right hands, offer unimaginable possibilities. That being said, so far I have been somewhat disappointed with the use of computers to produce music. Bach's Mass in B minor is still one of the pinnacles of western music -- nothing produced on a computer has come close (yet).

Also, with regard to popular music, there's still nothing as much fun as a room full of good musicians. Old mono motown recordings still sound good to me.

The great computer musician is lurking out there somewhere. It will take a few decades to sort them out.

[Josmoker]

Bach's Mass in B minor is still one of the pinnacles of western music -- nothing produced on a computer has come close (yet).

Well that's just like your opinion man. (The Dude)
Besides, I think that something that comes close will probably not be another pinnacle of western music. Something completely different on the other hand... IMHO there have been brilliant works of music in every genre (well apart from a few ), tradition and period. Also in electronic music. Pinnacle schminnacle. To name just 3 examples from various styles: Natural Suction (Wagon Christ), Precursor (Amon Tobin ft. Quadraceptor), Klein aber Doctor (Atmos) - this last one is also nominated in my personal best title for a music piece and best lyrics category. To anyone who wants to think I can't accept other opinions - I just like to share some music I adore with you guys, if only one person listens to one of those tunes I praised and likes 'em it was worth it, no?

Cheers, Jo

[Van Greco]

these are the good old days

[Wopelka]

i'm currently living some future good old days. i'll try to make them last as long as possible.

[DiLate]

everlong?


two words:
david f**king bowie

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

I was just thinking of how technology changes the nature of how we create, not just technology as in vst's sequencers etc, but also the broader use of the term

It changes every aspect of our lives, as does the nature of society. I'm sure Mozart didn't have to spend half is bloody day queueing up to pay his bills or stuck in traffic and he probably didn't have to do his own grocery shopping. He was fortunate to have the time to concentrate on music without distractions or without having to deal with record companies and tour managers and engineers and producers and all of that krap.

I have to agree with BONES here. Mozart pretty much did nothing but write music, and who nowadays has a royal patron to feed them money? If all I ever did was music from early childhoon you can bet I'd be a damn sight better at it than I am now.

He was a genius, for sure, but he ended up dying young and fought poverty all his life - and not everything he wrote was "a hit", either.

His life sucked pretty bad on occasion as well...

http://www.usefultrivia.com/biographies/mozart_001.html

[dover666]

f**k it.

[Rev. Jem]

He was a genius ... and not everything he wrote was "a hit", either.

Hi Ed, howzit hangin ? Good to see yer still alive n kickin !

Have to say that I'm pretty disappointed at the amazingly narrow views &, in some cases, just flat-out mis-informed ideas espoused by many posters in this thread.

Surely y'all must know or at least suspect that all of the modern names cited here will have sunk without trace within 10 or 20 years. To have your compositions survive 100 or 200 years... now that's a measure of true genius.

[Benedict]

and luck

A lot of the Classical greats we revere now owe their 'greatness' to historical luck and pure snobbery.

How come ppl don't rave endlessly about Thomas Tallis (William Byrd was really into him and he was great)?. Simply because he didn't catch the imagination of certain music afficionados and society types (like NME writers).

The Beatles will be remembered longer than The Who, even tho they offerd way more in many ways. Elvis will always outshine Carl Perkins or the guy who sung "Bear Cat" (ripped off to become Hound Dog).

It's called fashion

[pdxindy]

The great music transcends fashion and survives its fickle whims.

[The Chase]

[Kriminal]

AIDS is highly amusing

[pooshka]

what i am more interested in is why people feel the need to keep blabbering on about how some shit musicians are making it to the chart with no talent but armed with modern technology.

I mean chart has nothing to do with musical success/achievement it only means commercial success in terms of number of CDs they sell and stuff.

When you think about it, during any great classical composer's time you can bet that there were thousands of other 'shit' songs that were way more popular to public than these symphonies/operas whatver.

How many peasants actually had chance to see/hear an orchestra perform Mozart's symphonies in their life time do you reckon? How many people nowadays have chance to experience this? If anything classical music has become more popularised than it ever was centuries ago in terms of public accessibility to it...

Do you think 'public' appreciated Mozart more than they appreciated whatever folk song/drinking songs that were popular among peasants and alike at the time? Do you think peasants back then were humming Mozart when they were down in the pub drinking the night away or toiling the ground on their farm land? If you compare popular music nowadays with the songs that were sung by peasants at pubs or whatever centuries ago and try to judge each of them's musical merit than fair enough, but otherwise this discussion is just plain pointless.

What troubles me whenever I see this kinda discussion is that I think comparing Mozart with popular music nowadays is an elitist outlook on history, almost like taking the history of high class/highest academic level of musical development as THE history of music.

Something else that also confuse me is why people don't judge some of these traditional popular songs in the way that they try to judge/slack off popular songs of modern times. I mean why don't we really see people coming here to bitch about musical merits of some christmas carrols or songs that farmers sing in the country side but everyone's happy to jump on backs of chart topping pop singers music?

I think most of this technology-musical talent-popularity/public recognition kind of debate are ruined by some kinda elitist attitudes towards music that's hidden behind most of arguments somewhere, like the ones I tried to highlight above.

PS: Even if you don't buy anything I said so far, why the f. are we talking about whether technology makes music better/worse or whether popular music nowadays are better/worse or whatever - it's interesting enough to talk about how technology changes/effects music without having to make value judgement, especially considering that so many of such value judgements are made based on some sort of supposedly objective/academic musical standard, but without ever seriously outlining the exact terms and conditions under which such standards are made meaningful. In other words - using Mozart as an example to slack 'talentless musicians armed with modern technology' is just a cheap shot.

[Josmoker]

To have your compositions survive 100 or 200 years... now that's a measure of true genius.

How so?

The great music transcends fashion and survives its fickle whims.

Again, what makes you think so? It's always the winners who make history. You dno't know how many masterpieces got lost just because they were neglected. Neither do you know how many masterpieces you are missing right now because of the sheer amount of music available today.

Pooshka you make a couple of good points in your post - i've got one thing to add, though, regarding chart music: I think the difference compared to the times of Mozart etc. is that many people consider chart music as art and people like J.Lo, Eminem, heck even boyband people consider themselves to be artists. Then again where to draw that line is purely subjective again.

To me the most realistic stance on this issue (as in many others) is the agnostic one - you can't tell and it doesn't matter really who has more talent, who is the better artist, musician or whatever. The important thing is that you enjoy what you like and keep an open enough mind for new and different stuff.

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

He was a genius ... and not everything he wrote was "a hit", either.

Hi Ed, howzit hangin ? Good to see yer still alive n kickin !

Have to say that I'm pretty disappointed at the amazingly narrow views &, in some cases, just flat-out mis-informed ideas espoused by many posters in this thread.

Surely y'all must know or at least suspect that all of the modern names cited here will have sunk without trace within 10 or 20 years. To have your compositions survive 100 or 200 years... now that's a measure of true genius.

Hey Rev, how's it going? I'm alive, not sure about the kicking part lol! And welcome to KVR, now the Original Home of Flammage!

I imagine not a lot of people here have a deep background in classical music - my Dad was a total classical fanatic, on any given day I could be hearing Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Wagner, Verde or such while growing up. Too bad I picked up a guitar when I hit 14.. I still go to the SF Opera when I can afford it (which is rarely) or the San Jose symphony (again, rarely). Gotta have my "sturm und drang" fix.

I'm sure any music I write will be gone in short order even if popular because the recording/playback system necessary to reproduce it will be obsolete in less than a decade.. oh well! I would imagine my writings will outlive my music, thanks to the Internet and the infamous Printed Word. Putting notes on paper doesn't work well when the timbre of the synth you used is integral to the music.. argh..

But I ramble. Flame on dudes!