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Kiwburger wrote:Ooops - didn't realise that mentioning EMGs would cause so much pain. I agree that EMGs may not be always the ultimate for tone (although don't blame them for neck-through piano-like sustain ...). Pickups simply pickup whatever string sound is there in the first place, so wood quality and design/construction quality override most tone concerns. Level and eq curve can always be compensated for, to a certain extent, so EMGs can be made to work if you know what you're doing.

I mentioned them because of noise issues. Most guitars are noisy, because they are poorly made ripoffs of 1940's technology. The only reason so many noisy, passive guitars are sold is because guitar players buy the shit and don't mind eating it. Just like McDonalds hamburgers - they aren't good food, but we buy the shit anyway.

I would like to see somebody build a new technology guitar based on good EMI shielding. I think the whole pickup and electronics assembly should be in a shielded aluminium or steel 'box' unit, and then the problem would be solved.

SO - given that most guitars are poorly shielded (if at all), and given that most home studios are very hostile EMI environments, what can you do (apart from gates that don't work?).

There is a huge difference between EMG pups and Active circuits. An active circuit is simply a preamp in the guitar. It amplifies a passive pup, and therefore if your guitar is poorly shielded, it amplifies the noise. And usually the preamp is very cheap and noisy itself.

An EMG pup has the preamp built into the pickup - a very important difference. This means that the whole pickup and preamp are shielded. It no longer matters if the guitar isn't shielded - because by the time the wire leaves the pup, it's at a higher level and buffered lo-z and fairly immune from hum. There is still a little self noise from the preamp, but if you buy the top shelf ones they have extremely low noise. It's a shame they don't fit the good EMGs to stock guitars, so don't judge EMGs by the ones you see in shops. Read the spec sheets and look at noise specs to see what I mean.

I strongly believe that if guitar makers could forget the 1940's and make a good new design with a fully shielded unit, you could use the classic passive pups and achieve the same low noisefloor - it's not rocket science, but nobody is doing the obvious.
Wow Kiwburger! You mean we don't have to live with all that crappy old Hendrix/Clapton/Page/Beck/Vaughn tone anymore if we just install a set EMG Clinically Perfect Sterile 2000's? Now if we could just get amp makers to abandon those nasty distorting 1940's tubes...

They've been making guitars with active pickups for years...nobody buys them. Except fusion guys.
Last edited by guitarzan on Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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here's a little diddy i just slammed together in reaper. i'm really digging the jcm900 emulator.

i'm NOT digging noise gates at the moment so i left it out. try to listen around the racket. starts out with the guitar volume about 50%, then i fire it up to 100% halfway through. i swear, i can almost hear some feedback on the second bend about 60% in. can anyone else hear it?

amazing stuff this software. the emulator seems to really dig in hard and nasty when compressed and the gain is pushed up.

www.strafed.net/stuff/reaperjam1.mp3

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guitarzan - I'm sorry you couldn't understand what I said - never mind. As a rule, I don't hear nasty hum on any classic guitar-hero track. As a rule, most wannabe guitar bedroom rockers put up with huge amounts of hum/buzz, and attempt to justify this to themselves. If you can live with noise - i'm happy for you. If you want to solve all noise issues, I know how to do it with good engineering. Good engineering is what sorts the serious studios from the wannabe studios. Good engineering isn't cheap. EMGs aren't necessary - but a lot of highly reputable guitar players really do use them. Really. But with good engineering, you can use the classic single coils if you want to.

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@Kiwburger: I didn't "blame" those EMGs for the piano-like sustain. It was a compliment (unless "blame" can have a positive meaning - sorry no native speaker here) and I was refering to the whole guitar+PUs combi.
Re active vs. passive debate I think that everything has its place.
You cant say I dont use actives cause I like passives only. It's like saying I wont date Angelina Jolie cause I only do blondes :hihi:
If I go insane, please don't put your wires in my brain
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susiwong wrote:Those Andersons sure are great allrounders, I'd rather have a strat style like that as the only guitar for a variety job than something like a PRS.
Heh - well, I only partly agree. I've just played a bunch of PRS's and I want one soooo much. But their prices are truly f**ked up for whatever reasons (I mean, the Euro is quite a highly rated currency). 2300 € for a CE (classic electric, their lower range model)? Wtf? A friend of mine paid around 200 german marks, not even 10 years ago.
Kiwburger wrote: I mentioned them because of noise issues. Most guitars are noisy, because they are poorly made ripoffs of 1940's technology. The only reason so many noisy, passive guitars are sold is because guitar players buy the shit and don't mind eating it. Just like McDonalds hamburgers - they aren't good food, but we buy the shit anyway.
Hehe.
I actually do need a dose of fast food every now and then.
I strongly believe that if guitar makers could forget the 1940's and make a good new design with a fully shielded unit, you could use the classic passive pups and achieve the same low noisefloor - it's not rocket science, but nobody is doing the obvious.
Of course, you're completely right on that one.
Plus, there's other ways to actually reduce the noise which shouldn't affect the sound too much, dummy coil PUs being one of them, the Kinman PUs being another fine example for noisefree, almost 100% vintage tone.
And, if more people would care about the issue, things such as the Kinmans probably wouldn't cost a fortune anymore either.
Heck, even Fenders very own noiseless models aren't all that ad. Probably not *the* ultimate solution to get you that typical vintage 'twang', but surely great enough for most occasions.

It really seems as if guitarists are even more picky than all analog synth freaks at KVR.
Which is truly weird, btw. I mean, how many of us are indeed recording "important" stuff on a regular base? By important I mean guitar based productions (with the guitar the central of the sound) that will be released.
Heck, most of use axe slingers here at KVR are using both hard- and software amp sims for most of our recording needs. This seems to even include those that do have more or less proper analog recording gear. I really can't be arsed to carry my Boogie or Fender up to the 3rd floor, setup some fake isolation booth and yet already terrorize my neighbours by simply switching the damn loud mofos on.
Oh yeah, I'll be starting to build some dead box one day more or less soon. But so far, the question still remains: What for?
Usually, I'm not recording things for commercial use, so it'd just be for my personal pleasure. And amp sims seem to be quite fine for that so far as well.
There goes all the "picky-ness" about better dynamics coming from whatever vintage PUs.
To me, when recording with a computer, in whatever less then optimal home or semi-pro studio, the noise issue is way more important than the last details about a classic tone.
And the same goes for a live situation. Exactly the reason why I'm using parallel instead of true single coil mode on my Anderson to get a slightly single-coil-ish sound. It's still sounding fine with me and I'm sure nobody in the audience will ever care either.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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Kiwburger wrote:guitarzan - I'm sorry you couldn't understand what I said - never mind. As a rule, I don't hear nasty hum on any classic guitar-hero track. As a rule, most wannabe guitar bedroom rockers put up with huge amounts of hum/buzz, and attempt to justify this to themselves. If you can live with noise - i'm happy for you. If you want to solve all noise issues, I know how to do it with good engineering. Good engineering is what sorts the serious studios from the wannabe studios. Good engineering isn't cheap. EMGs aren't necessary - but a lot of highly reputable guitar players really do use them. Really. But with good engineering, you can use the classic single coils if you want to.
Well, all I know is that you can tame the normal noise of any classic instrument to any level you want with a downward expander, like FLOORFISH (software) or my Boss NS-50 (hardware). When it's set correctly for the intended dynamic range it doesn't seem to effect the tone at all. I guess I can see where some locations, like apartments or whatever might be too electronically noisey for an expander to work, though, and they wouldn't work for everybody's style (I'm not sure how well it would work if you used the guitar's volume control for dynamic effects, for example). Also, live performances would be a whole different story - and an instrument for live use is probably a do-it-all compromise to some extent for most people anyway.

Sheilding would be about all the engineering I think I would really ever want. At least in my case, it is the unique sounds of my guitars with their ancient pickups that I want to record in the first place. I would just rather learn to deal with the clasic style instuments as they exsist. Those are the instruments that the guitar heroes used, after all - they dealt with the noise in the studio, that's why you don't hear it on their recordings. Plus I already own a half dozen guitars with passive pickups - and the shops are loaded with more!

You know what? I just decided I don't give a damn what kind of pickups anybody uses. Carry on, then. :oops:

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Could amp miking (as opposed to direct in) also be the reason there was less noise than a software amp sim? Seems to me the further away from a speaker a mic is, less noise would be picked up, and just a tad of noise gate would take care of the rest? Not too far of course, but far enough to where the idle noise isn't mic'd.

By the way, is there a VST that makes a guitar sound like a bass? I don't want to have to buy a bass and I'm sick of playing bass on a keyboard. I will if I have to though, just checking.

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markdeaton wrote:By the way, is there a VST that makes a guitar sound like a bass? I don't want to have to buy a bass and I'm sick of playing bass on a keyboard. I will if I have to though, just checking.
pvtransp or Octaver12B
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Ay caramba !

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markdeaton wrote:Could amp miking (as opposed to direct in) also be the reason there was less noise than a software amp sim? Seems to me the further away from a speaker a mic is, less noise would be picked up, and just a tad of noise gate would take care of the rest? Not too far of course, but far enough to where the idle noise isn't mic'd.
The mic position has got nothing to do with the amount of noise being captured. If you move it away further, the noise is getting lower, but so is the amp signal. As a result you gotta raise recording gain, which will effectively raise both signal and noise again.

The reason why some amp setups *may* be not as noisy (some are even way noisier than any software stuff) probably being that the complete signal chain is optimized for guitar signals - something most computer recording signal chains aren't.
That's why there's a lot of devices these days coming with Hi-Z inputs, which should adress the issue (some are doing better whereas others don't).
By the way, is there a VST that makes a guitar sound like a bass? I don't want to have to buy a bass and I'm sick of playing bass on a keyboard. I will if I have to though, just checking.
I don't think you'd find too many convincing options.
Of course, some sort of pitch shifter might do the job, but either they're sounding plain bad, or they're sounding excellent. In the latter case you may still end up capturing a guitar tone which just sounds as what you did, pitching it down that is.
Perhaps you could get some good results out of an octaver (Guitar Rig comes with one) and then running it through some plugin emulating a bass amp. I should actually try that...
But then, perhaps it's just the longer strings that make up for some serious pumping in the first place.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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I'll give a pitch shifter a try. I hope something good comes out of it :)

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Sascha Franck wrote: But then, perhaps it's just the longer strings that make up for some serious pumping in the first place.
nope - it's also that you can grab them with much more strength... :)

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jens wrote: nope - it's also that you can grab them with much more strength... :)
You gotta explain that.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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heh, i was thinking the same thing Sascha.

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markdeaton wrote:By the way, is there a VST that makes a guitar sound like a bass? I don't want to have to buy a bass and I'm sick of playing bass on a keyboard. I will if I have to though, just checking.
The Fretted Synth audio triggered synths ( http://frettedsynth.com/ ) are great fun and can do some nice bass sounds - there's even one called Guitar Controlled Bass Synth v3.0. These audio triggered synths track great above the 4th or 5th fret and can play in any selected octave. Soon Fretted Synth will release FreeAmpSE 2.0 and that will have a new guitar synth component that will track perfectly all over the fretboard because it uses the guitars own tone as an oscillator. FreeAmpSE 1.5 is available now, and it is another great free amp sim with FX that you could try.

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markdeaton wrote:I'll give a pitch shifter a try. I hope something good comes out of it :)
If you want to hear what pvtransp can do , click here and scroll down to DaveSmom's and Dimitar's posts.
[====[\\\\\\\\]>------,

Ay caramba !

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