KVR Audio

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:11 pm

headquest wrote:
Jason Brian Merrill wrote:
headquest wrote:
Jason Brian Merrill wrote:"Sonar does not have a gapless audio engine in the same way that Ableton and Podium do. "
what does this have to do with time stretching?
It has nothing to do with timestretching as a process, but a lot to do with timestretching in "Real Time", which was the question I was responding to.
acid seems to do this just fine and doesnt have a "gapless audio engine" -- ???
Perhaps we're talkikng about different things?

I know that in ACID you can preview timestretched loops at the project tempo, but that is not what I interpreted the questioner meant by "real time", so if I'm on a different page I appologise...

However, to me, "real time" is about being able to drop an audio loop/clip into a project at a different tempo and launch it, with the timestretch applied in "real time" spontaneously without an audio dropout.

Neither ACID nor SONAR are intended for that, in terms of stage or live jamming use by musicians.

download a copy of acid, have a midi and another audio loop going at the project tempo of 120 bpm. Throw in a beat that was intended for 90 bpm.

Theres no delay there is there?

idobs · Post by **idobs** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:13 pm

Does anyone know whether the new "real VST" support will make the Virus TI's VST work any better with Sonar?

-Ido

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:15 pm

"stage or live jamming use by musicians."

right -- i would definetly say that the paradigm of Acid or sonar is not right for that at all... they are more compositional and production tools...

however, i know you can drop in any loop in acid and have it timestretch without a glitch...

and "gapless audio" seems like another marketing term, for the most part.

Laakas · Post by **Laakas** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:21 pm

bduffy wrote:Yeah, looks good. In the other thread, someone was saying it didn't seem that major, but when you add it all up, looks pretty major. And more like Nuendo!

Hey buddy!

Its seeems more then a Kick ASS man... i'm waitin for it to be available then upgrade.. Damn!!!Sonar simply raise the BAR to the next level!!

Hola back!!

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:22 pm

Jason Brian Merrill wrote: download a copy of acid, have a midi and another audio loop going at the project tempo of 120 bpm. Throw in a beat that was intended for 90 bpm.

Theres no delay there is there?

I don't want ACID on my system thank you (tried the demo on my previous computer and it seriously buggered up lots of settings... some of the problems it introduced I never resolved!). So you'll have to tell me the specific answer for ACID, Jason. If it does have gapless audio, then the developers have kept it a close secret, because they have entirely failed to market ACID as a viable alternative for stage use since Live came along and stole most of their market...

Regarding SONAR however, which uses the ACID timestretch, I just replicated your test and it did cause loud clicks when the 90bpm beat was added.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:26 pm

Jason Brian Merrill wrote:...and "gapless audio" seems like another marketing term, for the most part.

Not so at all as you well know. Fritz, the Podium developer, came on and explained this to you in proper detail the last time you pretended not to understand the use or importance of gapless audio. And Ron Kuper of Cakewalk has previously discussed the fact that SONAR developers want to reach the goal of gapless audio at some point (presumably they have not done so for Sonar 6 or we would surely have been told).

Considering that heavy-weight developers have already put you right on this score Jason, I don't think I should need to debate it with you again.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:30 pm

puffer wrote: But what really needs to happen is that independent developers & interested larger companies need to get together and agree on an open-source cross-platform plugin standard. It doesn't have to replace VST, AU or DXi but rather compliment it; one would hope, as it gains strength it could slowly overtake those standards. The plugins themselves can still be closed, with all the restrictions & dongles devs want to bog them down with, but the development kit would be open to a team of developers and public beta testers. I truly believe, if there was a viable alternative to VST et at we would see plugins filling that market.

Cakewalk were actively involved in proposing something like that...

http://www.kvraudio.com/news/857.html

munchkin · Post by **munchkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:02 pm

I use ACID 6 on a XP2400 Athlon and even on quite busy projects I can load loops, edit vst's, audio and midi in real time without any glitches in playback. The only limit occurs when the cpu is overloaded.

As far as I'm concerned ACID 6 must have gapless audio because I can edit my song while it plays back.

puffer · Post by **puffer** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:08 pm

I do remember that; thanks for the link. In fact, that was among the things that got me thinking about why there wasn't an alternative to VST. I wonder what happened with that.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:18 pm

munchkin wrote:As far as I'm concerned ACID 6 must have gapless audio because I can edit my song while it plays back.

That's interesting. "Gapless Audio" is about more than just the timestretch thing though... Can you also do stuff like create new MIDI clips including loading the VST synth and start playing in real time all withough audio dropouts? Can you also load, tweak and delete VST effects in the middle of an audio recording without dropouts, clicks, pops, etc? If so that is way ahead of SONAR and more like Ableton Live.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:27 pm

I'm sure it was announced some time back that Sonar "now" had a "gapless" audio engine - if I recall this was either a late version of 4 or when 5 came out and the same was said to be true of Project 5 v2. Has this gone the same way as "native" VSTi support?

Cabinfever · Post by **Cabinfever** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:09 pm

I use AcidPro 6 and Sonar 5PE. Acid is the far superior app for modifying tracks and audio while playing. But that's just my expereince.

As for Sonar 6 - I'm totally underwhelmed. There's absolutely nothing there that excites me. But I'm sort of relieved: with so much software being regularly updated I'm quite happy when something comes along where I can happily skip a version.

billybk1 · Post by **billybk1** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:11 pm

Regarding SONAR 6 & Native VST Support, I was kinda skeptical about it, as SONAR 5 claimed Native VST Support, although it was more integrated, into SONAR, it still ultimately required an external VST adapter. I just read this post, from a Cakewalk rep that finally clarifies it for me. SONAR 6 does have true Native VST Support and even VST customization capabilties:

All our VST support is now directly built in to the application itself as of SONAR 6.
What this means is we no longer use an adapter that registers VST plugins as DX plugins. When SONAR 6 scans for VST's on your system, VST's will no longer show up in your other DirectX applications.
Some other enhancements I can think of
- Scanning for VST's can be done within SONAR itself without requiring a restart.
- You can categorize your VST's in menus or submenus any way you want.
- Simplified access to VST presets

_____________________________

Noel Borthwick
Cakewalk

That makes the upgrade even more enticing.

From this SONAR thread:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=850058&mpage=1&key=

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:58 pm

aMUSEd wrote:I'm sure it was announced some time back that Sonar "now" had a "gapless" audio engine - if I recall this was either a late version of 4 or when 5 came out and the same was said to be true of Project 5 v2. Has this gone the same way as "native" VSTi support?

Basically, yes. The audio engine was rewritten, and a big improvement. But the claim that it was "gapless" was quickly the subject of hot debate, especially on the P5 forum. I suspect that the build up to P5v3 is to do with getting gapless audio sorted.

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:06 pm

nobody "put me right" about gapless audio. (although certainly, the meaning attempted to be clarified)

2 people in this thread already have posted on how they can modify and edit things just fine.

All i debated on that thread was that pdc and gapless audio seemed, by nature, to conflict. And I was right.

Gapless audio requires that everything stay in sync, without a glitch. It was shown that certain plugs, even with "gapless audio" engines, still introduce a glitch when put in. And again, others in this thread have shown they can modify and edit stuff and import stuff just fine in their hosts without glitches

so what exactly does "gapless audio" do again?

Sonar 6 information is available now.