KVR Audio

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:24 pm

Squids, I can appreciate your feelings on the matter. You are of course, biased, by definition, but I can understand it.

Now understand my position. IK stuff is too bloody expensive. yes, its good stuff, but its just too bloody expensive. The latest Amplitube stuff has really taken it over the top. I was just in the process of saving up my pennies for the IK FX bundle and actually these recent announcments actually put me back on the fence about it. Why? Because even if I could just barely justify spending $500 for the FX bundle on Ebay...As soon as I found out that in order to have the latest amp models and such I would have to pay hundreds more...and oh yea.....a controller that works with it will cost me another thousand bucks, and eventually I might have to pay for a wrapper to use them together and interact via midi?.........uhmm,.....nope...the long term value of that FX bundle just took a few steps back. I still might end up getting it only because it is just barely a good value at that bundle pricepoint regardless of the fact that I will simply be unable to add any more amp models or functionality due to budgetary constraints.

All this reaction you are getting from people is not based on the quality of the product...its based on very very poor pricing strategies from your company. Time will prove this out when hardly anyone buys it. Right now you should just consider all this internet flack to be an early warning system.

For the time being, Amplitube does definitely have the best sounding Amp models IMHO, though I have not heard the Line6 latest stuff that lots of people are talking about. I had a Pod Pro a few years back and thought it sounded like Shite. So maybe IK figures their stuff is like a Ferrari, the best and only drivable by those that can afford it. Cest la vie.. I hope that marketing strategy is working for IK. Personally I think they would make more money if they chose a pricing strategy that embraced a larger number of users. I know a number of other people who appreciate the quality of Amplitube..but either can't justify the cost...or else they are simply having a bit of a boycott by refusing to spend so much for something that should not be priced so high relative to what everyone else in the business is doing.

good luck with whatever you are working on.

Cosmic Bandito · Post by **Cosmic Bandito** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:24 pm

Marketing 101 - Amplitube has given each plugin a superior feature, thus you won't have the best of all worlds until you "buy them all". AT2 has the excellent FX - JHE the amps. Neither plugin will do metal without sounding too vintage-y (funny AT1 did metal), that's where AT Metal comes in (my guess is it'll sound like a POD). At least $700+ in software to cover all your bases. Don't even get me started on the USB floorpedal...

I don't think the guitar software is where the future lies anymore. There just toom much investment in time and money involved to get a realistic sound (monitors, soundcard, a good DI etc..). Although it is cool to have one decent plugin with a range of FX around for horsing around and when you absolutely need it.

Has anyone heard the NEW version of the Vox Tonelab? I heard some amazing sounds that were recorded direct, better than anything in software, and it's probably about $400 bucks and probably has a direct out! Scroll down this thread and check out Lucidology's clips...It make me wonder why we're having this argument.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=269644

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:37 pm

I have to use a Vox Valvetronix amp on some cover show I'm doing. Absolutely excellent when it comes to dynamics. I can play half the gig with one sound only. It's a bit more than crunchy but cleans up incredibly well when turning down the guitar volume.

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:54 pm

The tonelab is a great pedal. I have the SE and love it. I don't care much for it direct. What I have heard of Amplitube2, I think is better for direct recording. However, plugged into a tube amp(which is what I do), the tonelab is incredibly awesome and does have that sponginess you speak of where you can pick softly to get clean and picker hard to get dirty....like a real tube amp should respond. Plus the pedal itself has two variable controllers, complete midi, etc.. Yea...its an awesome live tone monster. Me personally, I would much rather just use that setup live than any tricky laptop amplitube thing that costs a lot more.

Cosmic Bandito · Post by **Cosmic Bandito** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:55 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:I have to use a Vox Valvetronix amp on some cover show I'm doing. Absolutely excellent when it comes to dynamics. I can play half the gig with one sound only. It's a bit more than crunchy but cleans up incredibly well when turning down the guitar volume.

I've heard a lot of people comment in music stores on the Vox Modelling amps as "the only one I like". The new version of the Tonelab is definitely improved over the older models, I don't know how that compares to their amps tho. Those clips of the Tonelab made me GAS though and I'm pretty sure he went direct for those recordings.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:07 pm

Cosmic Bandito wrote: I've heard a lot of people comment in music stores on the Vox Modelling amps as "the only one I like". The new version of the Tonelab is definitely improved over the older models, I don't know how that compares to their amps tho. Those clips of the Tonelab made me GAS though and I'm pretty sure he went direct for those recordings.

Well, the socalled "corrected" output (or whatever they call it) on the Valvetronix amps is sounding incredibly bad. But then, they're designed to be an amp rather than a DI thingy.

Fwiw, the bad things about live useage are pretty much those that I described in a previous post. No utility mode, no quick parameter access, etc. Heck, the damn thing doesn't even remember a tapped tempo systemwide but recalls the last delay tempo you used when you saved the patch. Uberlame, seriously.

But soundwise it's the most faithful digital amp I ever used (and there's been quite some over the years). Nothing for metal but for anything else it's quite excellent.
Ah well, build quality is quite shoddy, to say the least. Out of four amps in use with that cover show, only one didn't need a repair job yet, whereas two of them have seen the repair shop at least twice...

I have never tested the Tonelab pedals in detail, should probably do so one day.

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:12 pm

Well when the LE first came out, a lot of tonelab owners complained about a bunch of stuff they felt were made worse on the LE compared to the SE. Some of them returned their LE's and kept their SE's. I can't remember the details now...check the actual tonelab forums for more details. This is the first time I have heard people praising the new ones over the old ones... Nonetheless, tone is always a subjective thing. Either way, even the original tonelab blew away all the competition IMHO. A friend mine sold his multi-thousand dollar mesa boogie setup to copy my tonelab setup because it felt like we finally hit on the holy grail of rock tone.

However, me personally, the direct recording route leaves me dry. It still might be better than the competition for direct, but compared to running through a tube amp into real celestions..its just not quite the same. I found the nice balance was to use a newer cab model, but run that into a mesa boogie 50/50 into Vintage 30 speakers...and it just purrs like nothing else. I can literally sit there hitting open E and G power chords all day long getting high off the tone. One of the pedal models adds a bit of teeth to it when I want.

I do have some complaints though. I have not liked my clean tones very much from that thing. Also, I feel that some aspects of sustain and feedback are generally lacking, forcing you to use a compressor more than you should have to. However, on a positive note, its perhaps a bit easier to play cleanly than the real amps would be. Also, you only have one pedal model slot. So if you want distortion pedal and a compressor pedal at the same time, you can't. There are seperate slots for mod effecs and delay fx, etc.. its grouped that way. Easy to program, but occasionally I hit a limitation where maybe I want to combine two pedal models that are int he same slot and there is no way to do it on the tonelab.

Some people say they improved the direct recording option by using a low pass filter on the final output. I never tried it.

It also has some very useful modes of operation..for example, you put it into a mode where each of the numbered buttons on the pedal turns on/off a pedal model. For example, put it into that mode, then the first switch turns on/off the distortion pedal, 2nd switch turns on/off chorus, etc.. like a classic pedal setup. Switch back to the other mode and then you have normal bank-preset switching to change to a completely different setup. It adds a lot of live versatility.

blank/diod · Post by **blank/diod** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:14 pm

Cosmic Bandito wrote:I don't think the guitar software is where the future lies anymore.

I think there are a few million bedroom producers who would disagree there. They're unlikely to go out and buy a truckload of real gear that'll wake up half the block. They can however plug a guitar into AmpliTube or Guitar Rig and get a decent approximation of a monster rig of Woodstock proportions that'll only be heard in their headphones. There's room for both hardware and software just like there is on the synth market. VST instruments didn't kill hardware synths, but nor did they get old fast...

Dewdman42 wrote:Now understand my position. IK stuff is too bloody expensive.

Uh, wouldn't that have something to do with the extremely low value of the US dollar right now, vs. IK products being Italian?

I live in Sweden and a few years ago, one USD was worth almost 13 Swedish kronor. Today it's worth 6.50. It's dropped to half. Consequently, what used to be a huge difference between US and Swedish list prices has now been erased, and that's taking into account that we have a 25% sales tax. 2,995 SEK for AT2? Nothing remotely expensive about that. 1,995 SEK for AT:JH? That's a friggin' steal. What else could I get for 1,995 SEK, let's see... yeah, one of those bottom of the barrel no-name Stratocaster copies with twigs still growing out of the neck.

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:17 pm

The exchange rate is IK's problem, not mine. There are many other products on the market from the US, Germany and other places that are priced much more competitively. If IK wants my business they have to make it something I can afford and demonstrate to me a long term pricing strategy that won't leave me feeling like a schmuck.

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:19 pm

ps - a few million bedroom producers are not going to spend more than a few hundred quid for their guitar tone either. That's the bottom line.

Cosmic Bandito · Post by **Cosmic Bandito** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:50 pm

Yea, I don't think you need a "truckload" of real gear anymore (although you may need a truckload of IK software at this rate

). Some amps like the Hughes and Kettner switchblade are coming out with small "low volume" amps geared towords recording. But I think the best of these "hybrids" are still going to come out in the next few years. What happened to me is most likely going to happen to the million bedroom producers. Amp sims gave me a "taste" made me jones for real amps!

Bradster · Post by **Bradster** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:04 pm

blank/diod wrote:...I live in Sweden and a few years ago, one USD was worth almost 13 Swedish kronor. Today it's worth 6.50. It's dropped to half. Consequently, what used to be a huge difference between US and Swedish list prices has now been erased...

Funny though, this "realignment" between the currencies didn't impact the price of the recent Reason 4 upgrade from that of the R3 upgrade. By this math the Props would be netting about half as much this time around, no?

blank/diod wrote:one of those bottom of the barrel no-name Stratocaster copies with twigs still growing out of the neck.

blank/diod · Post by **blank/diod** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:06 pm

Cosmic Bandito wrote:Amp sims gave me a "taste" made me jones for real amps!

Oh yeah, it works both ways of course. Lots of kids who were born into the software synth era start with virtual instruments and eventually want a taste of those mythical beasts called hardware synths. When Propellerhead released their Roland TB-303/TR-808/909 emulator ReBirth some 10 years ago, a lot of people who owned the originals were worried that they'd have to sell them for peanuts, when in fact the demand (and thus the prices) increased.

As far as I'm concerned, the space saving is an important factor -- not that I'm one of those laptop freaks who are always on the road, quite the contrary, but whenever I can avoid stuff piling up in my room, I will. And since AmpliTube takes up no space at all, any real amp would have to be pretty damn small in order to tempt me. I'm talking smaller than that battery powered 1W novelty Marshall amp.

blank/diod · Post by **blank/diod** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:20 pm

Bradster wrote:Funny though, this "realignment" between the currencies didn't impact the price of the recent Reason 4 upgrade from that of the R3 upgrade. By this math the Props would be netting about half as much this time around, no?

Oh, but the price of Reason has gone up over these years of the free falling USD... it's, what, $499 now? The upgrade price they've always tried to keep in the same ballpark, even if it hurts a bit now. I know they are miffed about the sucky dollar value, as are all European companies who deal a lot with the US. The only ones who are thrilled are airlines and travel agencies; trips to the US used to be a luxury item but not anymore. Which reminds me, it's about goddamn time I went to NY...

Dewdman42 wrote:The exchange rate is IK's problem, not mine.

Well... when the SEK fell quite abruptly in the early 90's I was working at a music store, and the prices kept spinning out of control -- we didn't even have time to mark stuff up before new revised price lists arrived from the distributors. Clearly that was our problem, not the responsibility of whoever manufactured the products. If the dollar were to drop like the German Reichsmark in 1945, do you really think Volvo will be selling their cars to the US for 50 Euro a piece to make sure your Volvo prices remain the same?

Bradster · Post by **Bradster** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:00 pm

blank/diod wrote:Oh, but the price of Reason has gone up over these years of the free falling USD... it's, what, $499 now?

Hmmm...I didn't even look at the full version pricing as I just recently got the upgrade. A quick peek at MF's site shows they're still listing both R3 and R4 and the prices are identical. Full versions of both MAP at $399 USD with a "list" of $499.

Ableton's recently announced Live 7 is the same for the download as Live 6 at $119 and actually lower for the boxed at $159 from $219. Full version boxed is the same. (This from the announcement emails for both). Over in the NI camp, K5 is cheaper this year as well.

So is IKMM the only one that's changing their US pricing due to currency fluctuations?

Looking at how Ableton is pricing upgrades into the new Suite bundles, perhaps IKMM would consider something similar? The "crossgrades for all" offer is very generous for those with only one or two products but quickly diminishes in return with the more products you acquire. Would it be too much to ask for a higher discount for, say, those that have one of the big bundles?

Just a thought.

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