****Mastering Challenge Vote Thread****

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Very true mate, my EX-wife was a drummer and she too was/is oblivious to why/what/how she likes music but just does. Trends unimportant to her also like myself - if she likes music then she likes it and will not think about it at all. As an engineer, musician and a fan of music i find it hard sometimes as its easy to blur lines between the three if i am not careful.

I will use a band called 'Darkthrone' as an example of what i mean:

I really enjoy their music, they deliberately pretty much record everything first take with the most minimal of microphone's possible keeping any mistakes, add virtually nothing at the mixing stage maybe too much reverb on the vocal (it is 'Black Metal' after all) and then it gets mastered but i really doubt that anything apart from maybe a few db is added and then its released. Now if i tried to get away with such an approach i would be out of a job. Still i like them and what they do. In an age and era when people expect perfection this tells the engineer inside of me that it is all wrong. As a musician (long time guitar player) i like it even though it technically is very crude and as a fan i really enjoy their whole back catalogue as the sound/direction may of changed over the years (their not BM'a answer to motorhead ) but the approach and method remains the same.

Here is a track off one of their *better* sounding records so you can get an idea of what the hell i mean:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iFg4N-rawSw

Here is a two part interview with them, so you get an idea of what they are about:

Part One: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVH2d6q5J8

Part Two: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zalHMoh8O4A

Tracks from the album they talk about:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kAajs4oMbpg
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GLtwCQNPgWg

Now here is their take on a 'studio report' from 'Necrohell studio'

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIIjM24yA0

*Better = in this case a much more full and less scratchy sound in my Ex-wife's own words*

Although a pretty niche market and even i admit most of my friends whom like 'Metal' can not listen to this sort of stuff, It still is music and further backs up the term subjective (Could you imagine a audiophile mastering engineer's reaction if faced with this sort of mix?)

Dean

[Geoff242]

I totally agree. Is this a common female response? It is from my experience, but I hate to encourage stereotypes.

Could you imagine a audiophile mastering engineer's reaction if faced with this sort of mix?

A certain scene from "Scanners" comes to mind.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Dean (trapt in nekroland)

[eduardo_b]

Although a pretty niche market and even i admit most of my friends whom like 'Metal' can not listen to this sort of stuff, It still is music and further backs up the term subjective (Could you imagine a audiophile mastering engineer's reaction if faced with this sort of mix?)

Does it even need to be mastered? This demonstrates one of the downsides of doing it for a living -- the variety of stuff showing up would range from the amazing to the amazingly bad.

Not my cup of tea, as they say. Not even sure this band would be an acquired taste. I mean, you'd either have to really like the stuff right up front or dismiss it as vaguely music like.

Letterman's Late Show books a lot of current bands, and roughly two-thirds are categorized by my wife as noise, although to some degree I think that's a result of the sameness of many of them. Plus, I'm not at all sure the singer's in-ear monitors are always working, and the mixes are often...well...they need some kind of engineer to show them what to do.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Although a pretty niche market and even i admit most of my friends whom like 'Metal' can not listen to this sort of stuff, It still is music and further backs up the term subjective (Could you imagine a audiophile mastering engineer's reaction if faced with this sort of mix?)

Does it even need to be mastered? This demonstrates one of the downsides of doing it for a living -- the variety of stuff showing up would range from the amazing to the amazingly bad.

Not my cup of tea, as they say. Not even sure this band would be an acquired taste. I mean, you'd either have to really like the stuff right up front or dismiss it as vaguely music like.

Letterman's Late Show books a lot of current bands, and roughly two-thirds are categorized by my wife as noise, although to some degree I think that's a result of the sameness of many of them. Plus, I'm not at all sure the singer's in-ear monitors are always working, and the mixes are often...well...they need some kind of engineer to show them what to do.

I doubt it and to even think about having it mastered would probably 'Piss Them Off' . I know what you mean (and that would have to exclude personal preference for style of music): one day say you get a perfect bubblegum pop/r'n'b track for the the morning and its a matter of making it that bit more ear candy like (like you mentioned before as transparently but effectively as possible - the black art) and then you go to lunch, get back pull up the stereo production master mix version of something like that and there really is not anything you can really do with it at all. I guess you have two choices: do something with it but leave it intact as the racket hell noise which it is and make your money or call up the label and say i think you sent me the wrong version to me although the colour/color coding is right it sounds like a dictophone demo practice session! they inform you it is fact the finished mix and you breakdown laughing saying are you taking the piss?

I know for sure that i could not do it for a living even if i had the choice (which will never happen anyhow). To be fair i picked a pretty vile example to demonstrate but i think they (the mastering Engineer's of the world) are faced with this form of like you say amazing to the amazingly bad material (totally regardless of the fact that each will sell or the label are on a suicide mission!)

Agree with the sameness what is pumped through our TV sets and from a performance perspective their is nothing worse than a bad monitor mix. Could not even imagine what it would feel like on TV in front of literally millions

Take care mate and best regards

Dean

[Kim Lajoie]

Actually, come to think of it, my mix workshop will be addressing mastering in a few weeks anyway. I've kept the workshop closed for the last couple of months because each week builds on the previous week's work. However, it might be reasonable to bring new people on board for the final week (mastering). It's a pretty quick turnaround time though - I usually publish about a week after I provide my initial notes, so to get timely feedback (and an opportunity to resubmit) people generally need to get their work to me within a few days. Maybe I could extend it to two weeks? A lot of people would probably get to it at the last minute anyway, but it'd give more time for those who are serious and want to do more revisions. Would any of the participants in Geoff challenge (or anyone else in this thread) be interested in such a thing?

-Kim.

Anyone interested in this, see here.

-Kim.

[ngarjuna]

My vote:

Vermilion
Russet
Perse
Indigo
Aeneous
Nacarat
Nigrine
Ultramarine
Morel
Zinnober
Mazarine

[Polite Company]

Here's how they fell out for me.

1. Aeneus
2. Morel
3. Indigo
4. Ultramarine
5. Mazarine
6. Nacarat
7. Zinnober
8. Vermilion
9. Nigrine
10. Russert
11. Perse

[Geoff242]

VOTING CLOSED

Sorry for the delay in posting this. I have a lot going on right now.

I would like to thank everyone who gave of their precious time and energy to make this challenge be fun and beneficial for everyone else.

I will be putting together the final results and posting them very soon. I don't think the results will be much different from what they were at the halfway mark since not many others voted since then. I will also be compiling my vote and remarks as well. I hope to have this all done before tomorrow, but we'll see.

Thanks again and stay tuned...

[Geoff242]

Here are my thoughts on all the mixes. Please take my feedback with a big grain of salt. I am no mastering engineer. I guarantee you that every issue that I point out, I have been guilty of and probably worse. Please don't take it personal if I didn't like your version. I did try to point out the good things I heard in all the mixes.

I also hope each of the entrants are able to make some sense of all the feedback they have received throughout this process to better their skills or even validate their methods. I know I have learned a lot though this process, and I want to thank everyone for that opportunity.


#1 - Vermilion

• This master is the softest of the bunch. The compression is nice and balanced, but maybe just not as loud as it could have been. This is easily overcome with my volume knob . There is no sibilance or any major bass problems that I hear. The overall EQ is probably the closest to the original mix of all the entries from what I can tell. That isn't the sole reason I rated it highest though. There are some other subtle changes to the mids that make this mix the easiest to listen to overall.

#2 - Nacarat

• Well balanced bass levels. Smooth compression with no noticeable volume fluctuations. It is loud, but not too loud. It does seem a little sibilant around 7.2k. I hear what seems to be a little distortion in only a few spots, one of them being around 2:02 and just after that. It seems to be brought on by the bass, but not that serious. Overall, the mix is bright but not harsh, which makes it nice to listen to.

#3 - Aeneous

• The EQ balance is good in this master. The bass is well tamed with some punch left. The dynamics are still there even though the track is pretty loud. It seems a bit sibilant around the 7.5k area, but tolerable.

#4 - Indigo

• I like this master overall. It's loud, but not smashed. The sub-bass frequencies are fairly loud, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a bit much for me. It seems a little sibilant around 6.5k to me.

#5 - Russet

• This mix seems to focus mostly on the vocals, which is good, but it seems to have some unintended side effects. The mids below the vocals sound a bit muddy at times which makes the guitar almost indistinguishable from the rest of the music. The bass is a little hot, but still punchy. The compression/limiting seems well done. It's quite loud, but doesn't seem to have any distortion.

#6 - Perse

• This master is overall pleasant to listen to. It's a little muddy, which seems to be stemming from the 100-150hz area to me. The sibilants are nicely controlled. There is what seems to be a little volume fluctuation coming from the compressor/limiter, but not too serious. The vocals seem to get a bit lost in a few spots.

#7 - Morel

• The mid-bass in this mix seems to be drastically reduced and the sub-bass has been boosted. The kick now sounds very boomy. I also hear what seems to sound like a gate. It is most apparent in the break at around 1:00 where the sound kind of cuts out a few times. This can also be heard at the end of the song around 2:50. The frequencies above around 6k seem to be boosted quite a bit.

#8 - Nigrine

• This master is quite muddy and seems to be heavily influenced by a large amount of reverb over the whole mix. There also seems to be a strange delay or pre-delay that causes some slapback effects that are quite distracting. This is most noticeable around the break around 1:35. The EQ has been drastically changed with many cuts to the mids and boosted a lot at and above the 15k area. This mix actually has a good application of compression/limiting though.

#9 - Mazarine

• This is definitely the loudest of all the versions and contains quite a bit of distortion. I also hear some extra reverb that might have sounded good if it wasn't so obvious and the distortion was gone. The mix is really boosted from about 8k on up and sounds quite harsh.

#10 - Zinnober

• This is close to the loudest version of them all. There are some drastic EQ changes in this master that are very unpleasant to listen to. It sounds like all the frequencies are concentrated around the sub-bass and about 2k. I don't hear any sibilance though.

#11 - Ultramarine

• Even though this master is not very loud, there are some noticeable compression problems with this mix. For example around 30 seconds in (during a musical break), you can hear the compression release and the volume rise. I would have rated this mix much higher had it not been for this one major issue. A large section of mid-bass frequencies have been dropped quite drastically which seems to remove a lot of warmth from the mix. This master does not seem to have the sibilance issues that others have though. The sub-bass frequencies seem to fit nicely as well.

[Geoff242]

FINAL RESULTS

Download Spreadsheet Here

#1 - Aeneous

• Original Entrant: Nokenoku
  Score:46

#2 - Nacarat

• Original Entrant: Shy
  Score:57

#3 - Indigo

• Original Entrant: NEKRO.MACHINE
  Score:60

#4 - Vermilion

• Original Entrant: ngarjuna
  Score:76

#5 - Ultramarine

• Original Entrant: expitronic
  Score:82

#6 - Russet

• Original Entrant: JCM
  Score:86

#7 - Perse

• Original Entrant: hackenslash
  Score:97

#8 - Nigrine

• Original Entrant: 7kilo
  Score:131

#9 - Morel

• Original Entrant: Zsolt
  Score:132

#10 - Mazarine

• Original Entrant: Haudegen
  Score:135

#11 - Zinnober

• Original Entrant: pearldrivers
  Score:138

[Nokenoku]

Yeah



What's this xls-file by the way? Which program can open it?

[Geoff242]

What's this xls-file by the way? Which program can open it?

MS Office or Open Office

[7kilo]

thanks everybody for the rather interesting experience. congrats nokenoku.

[hackenslash]

Good stuff!