Waves NLS Non-Linear Summer released
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- KVRist
- 161 posts since 11 Feb, 2011 from Duluth
NLS!! the Nevo is my favorite right now - most applicable to what I tend to do.
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- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 5 Oct, 2003
I strive for maximum dynamic range in all my recordings. I also learned fairly early on that, unless levels being send to the summing bus in Cubase are very low, the mix becomes congested and flat. That was a revelation.Compyfox wrote:And regarding gain staging - they aren't as inflexible and unforgiving. At least not in my opinion. Granted, you have a less dynamic range at your disposal (if you're after that), but you actually benefit from several things.MickGael wrote:Speaking only for myself, I find digital summing and gain staging brittle, inflexible and an unforgiving pain in the ass.
"Time makes fools of us all. Our only comfort is that greater shall come after us." Eric Temple Bell
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
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Dean Aka Nekro Dean Aka Nekro https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=162100 - KVRAF
- 6178 posts since 4 Oct, 2007 from Escaped At Last
Yep, Same as every other daw (Of course and the part about not mixing so "hot" at 24-Bit MickMickGael wrote:I strive for maximum dynamic range in all my recordings. I also learned fairly early on that, unless levels being send to the summing bus in Cubase are very low, the mix becomes congested and flat. That was a revelation.Compyfox wrote:And regarding gain staging - they aren't as inflexible and unforgiving. At least not in my opinion. Granted, you have a less dynamic range at your disposal (if you're after that), but you actually benefit from several things.MickGael wrote:Speaking only for myself, I find digital summing and gain staging brittle, inflexible and an unforgiving pain in the ass.
).I'll fully admitt that when I first started dabbling with digital it was totally backwards...and I as it was 16-Bit it was still about getting a health/to healthy signal in really, Then with 24-Bit it sent my head all over the place as it was really backwards practice for me personally...I got there eventually (I think)
always room for improvement though or just a re-evalutation on the way I go about things in order to remove any bad habits (Hopefully)Cheers
Dean
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Look at it this way:
You usually measure in to -18dBFS (0VU) on average (300ms) level anyway. The digital peak can still go up to -6dBFS digital, even though -9dBFS is recommended.
With 24bit, you still have a dynamic range of over 120dB! If you substract the -9dBFS digital maximum from 144dB dynamic range with 24bit, you have 135dB even though you need to take a certain noise floor and headroom into consideration.
In my case:
My Behringer Ultramatch has a noisefloor of -102dB at 24bit, savety headroom will be -6dBFS. This results in an effective dynamic range of 96dB. Now analog equipment has a higher noisefloor to begin with and a different headroom as well. Since we're on a digital environment with (hopefully) good ADC/DAC's we still have a higher dynamic range than with normal analog equipment unless it was modified or was high class to begin with.
The -18dB RMS / 0VU is just the optimum worklevel, the hotspot so to say. You are not limited in anyway - it's the other way around. And having a better fader resolution AFTER you leveled in your signal rather than pressing everything to it's limits is a great advantage IMO.
Since I adapted this, my faders are not in the lower 30% position anymore, but in the upper 50%. Finetuning is definitely more relaxed.
And I didn't even get startet on benefits for TV/DVD mixes (AC3 stream).
You usually measure in to -18dBFS (0VU) on average (300ms) level anyway. The digital peak can still go up to -6dBFS digital, even though -9dBFS is recommended.
With 24bit, you still have a dynamic range of over 120dB! If you substract the -9dBFS digital maximum from 144dB dynamic range with 24bit, you have 135dB even though you need to take a certain noise floor and headroom into consideration.
In my case:
My Behringer Ultramatch has a noisefloor of -102dB at 24bit, savety headroom will be -6dBFS. This results in an effective dynamic range of 96dB. Now analog equipment has a higher noisefloor to begin with and a different headroom as well. Since we're on a digital environment with (hopefully) good ADC/DAC's we still have a higher dynamic range than with normal analog equipment unless it was modified or was high class to begin with.
The -18dB RMS / 0VU is just the optimum worklevel, the hotspot so to say. You are not limited in anyway - it's the other way around. And having a better fader resolution AFTER you leveled in your signal rather than pressing everything to it's limits is a great advantage IMO.
Since I adapted this, my faders are not in the lower 30% position anymore, but in the upper 50%. Finetuning is definitely more relaxed.
And I didn't even get startet on benefits for TV/DVD mixes (AC3 stream).
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
Wake the dead!
Being someone who can't keep up with a bunch of the techno-talk, since it's been quite some time, who's using it?
If you were using the AR "redd", would I care or need this?
I don't understand how this works. It almost seems in videos that you add channels to your tracks, and them have one that they can all go to as a "summer?". ???
I really don't need this but I've got a "kick" going because I saw the mixing shootout with studio one and the one guy uses some slate stuff on every channel.....I don't do dongles (especially not ilok2) and was looking for other alternatives.
Oh, and as mentioned, I have satson but to be honest, other than the obvious controls, I don't really understand how to use it.
Being someone who can't keep up with a bunch of the techno-talk, since it's been quite some time, who's using it?
If you were using the AR "redd", would I care or need this?
I don't understand how this works. It almost seems in videos that you add channels to your tracks, and them have one that they can all go to as a "summer?". ???
I really don't need this but I've got a "kick" going because I saw the mixing shootout with studio one and the one guy uses some slate stuff on every channel.....I don't do dongles (especially not ilok2) and was looking for other alternatives.
Oh, and as mentioned, I have satson but to be honest, other than the obvious controls, I don't really understand how to use it.
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Dean Aka Nekro Dean Aka Nekro https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=162100
- KVRAF
- 6178 posts since 4 Oct, 2007 from Escaped At Last
I use NLS sometimes Chris mate. It is not like AR REDD and both Compyfox, Myself and others were debating why the heck Waves didn't add one of the REDD desks they got their hands on into NLS on the REDD thread when it came out
Idea is the same as VCC. You insert an instance of NLS Channel on each of your channels, Choose which desk or mix and match to taste then on your buss/aux channels and/or master you insert the NSL Buss component, Then simply drive each NLS Channel along with the NLS Buss until you get a flavour that you like
Easiest way to do so is by setting up a template and first few runs drive it too much so you can clearly hear what is going on. Then back it off to much more subtle/tasteful amounts.
So lets say you've got S1 or whatever host open man and you start by loading up Toontrack SD2 with the multiple outputs, Put/insert an instance of NSL Channel onto each output, Then either/and/or whatever bus/aux channels you use regular and your master out insert an instance of NLS Buss there, The routing/hook ups pretty much take care of themselves/You'll figure it out quickly. Go about business as usual with your eq/filtering and dynamics processing...etc. on the kit and crank each NSL Channel up some so you can clearly hear what its doing when you bypass the instances, Same with the NSL Buss instance(s), Each needs the other to work. Then plug in one of your guitars or bass guitars with your sim/sims of choice for the job and lay down some ideas that fit with whatever drum parts you've gone for and same BAU process but insert the instances of NLS Channel and make sure they are routed to NLS Buss instances you want them to be
Have a fiddle and hear what results you get or don't
Token 'tube example -
If you don't fancy laying down stuff just for this purpose then there are a lot of multi-tracked songs in various styles and genres available that you could download to try out NLS on, Mike Senior whom does the Sound On Sound 'mix rescue' series has links to a lot of material to practice upon, Here for example: http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm#Rock
Hope that helps, REDD definitely does not negate NLS at all IMveryhumbleHO and it is worth trying out if you are curious. It is an accumulative thing that isn't black magic fairy dust snake oil but I think once you are used to it (Incorporated with your regular workflow/plugins). It is definitely not something that shows results whacked on a drum loop, Personally I find that I don't need to use as much compression when using NLS but it definitely comes with the YMMV disclaimer
All the best
Dean
Idea is the same as VCC. You insert an instance of NLS Channel on each of your channels, Choose which desk or mix and match to taste then on your buss/aux channels and/or master you insert the NSL Buss component, Then simply drive each NLS Channel along with the NLS Buss until you get a flavour that you like
Easiest way to do so is by setting up a template and first few runs drive it too much so you can clearly hear what is going on. Then back it off to much more subtle/tasteful amounts.
So lets say you've got S1 or whatever host open man and you start by loading up Toontrack SD2 with the multiple outputs, Put/insert an instance of NSL Channel onto each output, Then either/and/or whatever bus/aux channels you use regular and your master out insert an instance of NLS Buss there, The routing/hook ups pretty much take care of themselves/You'll figure it out quickly. Go about business as usual with your eq/filtering and dynamics processing...etc. on the kit and crank each NSL Channel up some so you can clearly hear what its doing when you bypass the instances, Same with the NSL Buss instance(s), Each needs the other to work. Then plug in one of your guitars or bass guitars with your sim/sims of choice for the job and lay down some ideas that fit with whatever drum parts you've gone for and same BAU process but insert the instances of NLS Channel and make sure they are routed to NLS Buss instances you want them to be
Have a fiddle and hear what results you get or don't
Token 'tube example -
If you don't fancy laying down stuff just for this purpose then there are a lot of multi-tracked songs in various styles and genres available that you could download to try out NLS on, Mike Senior whom does the Sound On Sound 'mix rescue' series has links to a lot of material to practice upon, Here for example: http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm#Rock
Hope that helps, REDD definitely does not negate NLS at all IMveryhumbleHO and it is worth trying out if you are curious. It is an accumulative thing that isn't black magic fairy dust snake oil but I think once you are used to it (Incorporated with your regular workflow/plugins). It is definitely not something that shows results whacked on a drum loop, Personally I find that I don't need to use as much compression when using NLS but it definitely comes with the YMMV disclaimer
All the best
Dean
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
Wow, thanks Dean! Personally I'm leaning toward things like the redd and aphex exciter not as an alternative to eqing/compressing but as an aid. So, when the NLS becomes available at a reduced price, I'll give it a go. (everything I'm getting is on sale, 250 isn't going to work for me )
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- KVRAF
- 2655 posts since 13 Mar, 2004
What took me by surprise when having a look at NLS is that the "VU" meters on the GUI display peak FS and not VU. Ok,not the most important thing, but I find this quite ridiculous actually on a plugin meant to emulate an analog mixing desk.
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Depends... if the "analog console" had a PPM (5ms rise/fall depending on the standard) and not a VU (300ms rise/fall), then it's accurate.
The EMI console was laid out with plain VU's for sure. And I'm surprised that you can't change the settings of the VU? Don't have access to the NLS Plugin atm. So I can neither conform or discount the statement.
The EMI console was laid out with plain VU's for sure. And I'm surprised that you can't change the settings of the VU? Don't have access to the NLS Plugin atm. So I can neither conform or discount the statement.
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Then, 9dBFS (around the middle of the VU) should be your max point peak wise.
If in doubt, run a VU like Klanghelm in front of it. I do that anyway with such plugins. And it's a bit better in terms of gain staging.
Else yes, I do agree. That is kind of stupid. But if the plugin is otherwise with a reference level (which should be! We're talking about consoles here, and the TG12345 is a very old one!), it's a bit nonsense to go the peak route.
If in doubt, run a VU like Klanghelm in front of it. I do that anyway with such plugins. And it's a bit better in terms of gain staging.
Else yes, I do agree. That is kind of stupid. But if the plugin is otherwise with a reference level (which should be! We're talking about consoles here, and the TG12345 is a very old one!), it's a bit nonsense to go the peak route.
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
More wake the dead!
It's 99 bucks right now (prolly cheaper some places) so I'm back on the rampage.
I'm really glad I re-read most of this. I didn't understand it (you know, my pea-brain) but I think I kinda do now......but I'll have to demo it in the next few days....
Again though, I have satson and never use it so I've gotta get my head straight and demo it all.
It's 99 bucks right now (prolly cheaper some places) so I'm back on the rampage.
I'm really glad I re-read most of this. I didn't understand it (you know, my pea-brain) but I think I kinda do now......but I'll have to demo it in the next few days....
Again though, I have satson and never use it so I've gotta get my head straight and demo it all.
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- KVRAF
- 11369 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
I have VCC, Satson and SDRR. They all do somewhat similar things and in the past few weeks it's been SDRR every single time. Sometimes a combination of VCC and SDRR but I really think SDRR has the edge in this game.
Sure, it doesn't represent any real consoles like VCC but there's just something extremely pleasant and "modern" with the sound. It works very well as a subtle warming unit or a much harder "stop the peaks!" kind of thing in your signal path. And it's so darn flexible compared to any of the others. Also, combined with U-He Satin, SDRR comes into it's own. Not sure why this pair is so brilliant, but it is.
Unfortunately there isn't a demo but if you PM me I can send you a quick clip of just how much SDRR is responsible for changing some tracks (that is, simply inserting SDRR, never tweaking any of the EQ or dynamics sections).
I've demoed the Waves plugins when they were released and was not that impressed.. but I might have been using them a bit too brutally. Since the release of VCC I've learned much better habits. Mostly I only push the input on a couple of tracks and keep the rest well below 0dBU or whatever the virtual dBU unit is.
Cheers!
bManic
Sure, it doesn't represent any real consoles like VCC but there's just something extremely pleasant and "modern" with the sound. It works very well as a subtle warming unit or a much harder "stop the peaks!" kind of thing in your signal path. And it's so darn flexible compared to any of the others. Also, combined with U-He Satin, SDRR comes into it's own. Not sure why this pair is so brilliant, but it is.
Unfortunately there isn't a demo but if you PM me I can send you a quick clip of just how much SDRR is responsible for changing some tracks (that is, simply inserting SDRR, never tweaking any of the EQ or dynamics sections).
I've demoed the Waves plugins when they were released and was not that impressed.. but I might have been using them a bit too brutally. Since the release of VCC I've learned much better habits. Mostly I only push the input on a couple of tracks and keep the rest well below 0dBU or whatever the virtual dBU unit is.
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
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- KVRian
- 1086 posts since 17 Jun, 2012
Did I not get the memo or something. I thought I was familiar with every console saturation plug out there. What the heck is SDRR? I'm sure its great but I don't even know what you are referring to.bmanic wrote:I have VCC, Satson and SDRR. They all do somewhat similar things and in the past few weeks it's been SDRR every single time. Sometimes a combination of VCC and SDRR but I really think SDRR has the edge in this game.
Sure, it doesn't represent any real consoles like VCC but there's just something extremely pleasant and "modern" with the sound. It works very well as a subtle warming unit or a much harder "stop the peaks!" kind of thing in your signal path. And it's so darn flexible compared to any of the others. Also, combined with U-He Satin, SDRR comes into it's own. Not sure why this pair is so brilliant, but it is.
Unfortunately there isn't a demo but if you PM me I can send you a quick clip of just how much SDRR is responsible for changing some tracks (that is, simply inserting SDRR, never tweaking any of the EQ or dynamics sections).
I've demoed the Waves plugins when they were released and was not that impressed.. but I might have been using them a bit too brutally. Since the release of VCC I've learned much better habits. Mostly I only push the input on a couple of tracks and keep the rest well below 0dBU or whatever the virtual dBU unit is.
Cheers!
bManic
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- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 27 Mar, 2010 from UK
http://klanghelm.com/SDRR.htmlAC222 wrote:Did I not get the memo or something. I thought I was familiar with every console saturation plug out there. What the heck is SDRR? I'm sure its great but I don't even know what you are referring to.
Never used it myself, but the klanghelm gets a lot of positive support across various forums.
Well worth a demo no doubt, not sure why I never tried myself although I did like their DC8D Compressor when it was in beta if I recall.
