FREE: Alexis D-Four ... 90s drum sounds

[hollowsun]

Al seeks permission for several reasons, but, has publicly acknowledged that he does this out of respect for the artist and not because he is obligated by law.

Yes - he's erring on the side of safety to protect himself ... and rightly so. That he does it out of respect just doubles his kudos!


Stephen

[ghettosynth]

Al seeks permission for several reasons, but, has publicly acknowledged that he does this out of respect for the artist and not because he is obligated by law.

Yes - he's erring on the side of safety to protect himself ... and rightly so. That he does it out of respect just doubles his kudos!

If it were safety, then he would not have released the Gaga track for free that he believed he did not have permission for. He stated, point blank, that he knew that he didn't need permission and released it on youtube.

The only thing that he's avoiding, is a court date that he would win.

I want to make it clear here, no permission is needed for fair use, that's precisely what the term means. It means that the use is "fair" and therefore does not require permission from the author and, consequently, is NOT copyright infringement.

[ghettosynth]

Wait, so are 909 toms synthesized in real time or are they samples?

They are synthesized. My post was correct, Stephen's was not. He should have acknowledged that IMO. I linked the schematic above which clear shows the circuits for the toms and also the roms and counters for the cymbals (and hats).

A Simmons representative told me in an email that if the SDS-5 samples were available then they would like to know the web address but that I could download them as long as they were available. The SDS-5 is all analogue I believe though, so that doesn't help much.

The original SDS-5 is all analogue. Some Simmons SDS series synths, such as the SDS9, included samples for some sounds such as the snare. The representative might have simply been interesting in being aware of how the samples were being distributed. Perhaps he's required to pass on any information to his legal department. The site could, for example, be violating Simmons trademarks, this is a different issue.

Even if this were true, however, you did not need his permission to use and samples of the (originatl) SDS-5/SDS-V.

Now, another concern might have been that the samples were from this product:

http://www.simmonsdrums.net/sd5x/

Clearly this is not analogue and cannot be sampled.

[ghettosynth]

Wait, so are 909 toms synthesized in real time or are they samples?

I'm sure that they're synthesized, aren't they?

But most of the sample libraries out there also have TR-909 samples of hi-hat, crash, ride and cymbals -- so they must be all illegal?

Surely someone would argue that because the samples in the hardware's ROM sound so different than how they sound through the hardware's processing (which is the only form of them that almost everyone knows), then it's fine. Then maybe some nonsense about just what is required before you can consider a sample "modified/processed/customized/different compared to the unprocessed original" enough that it could be distributed with no worries.

No, I don't think that's really it. What I think is the issue is that it's not worth Roland opening the can of worms that the 909 might bring. I don't think that there's a better example that could support the various concerns in this thread that the sampling involved is isn't what copyright was designed to protect.

To be clear, I'm not saying that they wouldn't win, they probably would, but there might be some risk and there would be little reward as those samples are old, of low quality, and, as you state, only a small part of the instrument's sound. Also, I'm quite sure that there would be some risk for any highly visible attempts to use those samples for profit. For example, if someone tried to release a commercially available accurate 909 clone, including samples, you'd probably attract Roland's attention. I've heard second hand that Roland has contacted some people about distributing those samples.

There are many other similar examples. The Ensoniq ESQ1, and the Korg DW6000/DW8000 are viewed as analog synths but they contain samples in rom. Now, in the Korg case, it might be argued that they are not, in fact, a recording, but, simply the output of an algorithmic process.

[hollowsun]

My post was correct, Stephen's was not. He should have acknowledged that IMO.

My post was correct but for that one point - I've always been led to believe that the 909 toms were samples. Thank you for correcting me on that.

It's immaterial anyway - they sound like shite.

IMO of course!


Stephen

[ghettosynth]

My post was correct, Stephen's was not. He should have acknowledged that IMO.

My post was correct but for that one point - I've always been led to believe that the 909 toms were samples. Thank you for correcting me on that.

Sure, but, it's the details that keep people confused. I've seen different variations on this discussion, the schematic reveals all. Thanks for posting.

It's immaterial anyway - they sound like shite.

IMO of course!

On that we agree completely.

[hollowsun]

Now, another concern might have been that the samples were from this product:

http://www.simmonsdrums.net/sd5x/

Clearly this is not analogue and cannot be sampled.

Correct...

But that is not 'Simmons' either - the trade name was bought and used for these products, presumably to add 'cred'.

Simmons was a quintessentially British company run by the innovative Dave Simmons - run by enthusiasts rather than businessmen - which is fabulous in its way but not always a recipe for long term success.

The company you link to is (I think/am fairly sure sure) an American outfit using the Simmons name/logo which has no direct association with the original Simmons company or Dave (as I understand it).

But yes ... you can sample the original (and wondrous) SDS5 (or rather, SDSV) freely but the SDS7 (not the SDS9 which is analogue) is trickier as that has samples on EEPROMs ... but given that the original company is no more, that might not necessarily be a problem ... unless the new trademark holder decides to get arsey. Remember the Rhodes debacle? Quite legal to sample the Rhodes (being electro-mechanical) but the ambulance chaser who bought the trademark didn't allow any samples or products to use the Rhodes name, not even if it was disguised, and went around threatening litigation. Caused Scarbee a right old pile of dosh and caused commotion with manufacturers who included 'Road Blender' - whatever - patches in their products ... I remember having to go through and rename all samples and patches for Fusion and legacy Akai library!! PITA! Scarbee, as I understand it, had to just bin a whole bunch of CD-ROMs, rename everything (to 'Classic EP' as I recall) and have a new batch run off.

Oh, it's a bloody nightmare ... and that's before you consider the various 'grey areas' where things are maybe not as cut and dried as they might appear. Like this one - the D4 is long discontinued but the samples/sounds ARE still (technically) the IP/copyright of Alesis. As mentioned, Alesis might not give a toss. On the other hand, they may have plans to release a D4/5 library for their DM10 and so want to protect those samples. Who's to say?

If in doubt don't ... or ask permission or pay to license.


Stephen

[hollowsun]

On that we agree completely.

Ha!

It's not just me then!

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!


Stephen

[Tricky-Loops]

On that we agree completely.

Ha!

It's not just me then!

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!


Stephen

Weren't the 808/909 (606?) toms used high-pitched as this classical disco-"laser"-effect?

[Cri]

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!

The power of vintage. There are lots of old synths sold for crazy prices just for their manufacture date. The good thing is that I see many NEW good products at reasonable prices. A Bass Station for example, the new one costs almost like the old one and in terms of flexibility is MUCH more...but yeah, the old one is "vintage" isn't it?

Btw, IMO I love processed 808 samples.

[mumpcake]

On that we agree completely.

Ha!

It's not just me then!

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!


Stephen

Weren't the 808/909 (606?) toms used high-pitched as this classical disco-"laser"-effect?

While I don't discount that you could do that, I'm pretty sure that sound predated the x0x boxes.

[nineofkings]

I've used (processed) D4 samples in almost all of my recent songs. Ten pages later I still don't know if I'm f*cked or not.

[Shy]

I've always been led to believe that the 909 toms were samples. Thank you for correcting me on that.

It's immaterial anyway - they sound like shite.

On that we agree completely.

Ha!

It's not just me then!

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!

Not much, but that's fine, I always read stuff like that from people who don't really appreciate excellent analog musical instruments (the TR-909 toms' design is amazing and hence so is the sound) and most likely don't even know what they're talking about (you call this shit) but yeah, it's just opinions .

[ghettosynth]

Now, another concern might have been that the samples were from this product:

http://www.simmonsdrums.net/sd5x/

Clearly this is not analogue and cannot be sampled.

Correct...

But that is not 'Simmons' either - the trade name was bought and used for these products, presumably to add 'cred'.

Right, it wasn't clear to me whether the question was about the original simmons or the new company which continues to frustrate my craigslist searches with their crap.

But yes ... you can sample the original (and wondrous) SDS5 (or rather, SDSV) freely but the SDS7 (not the SDS9 which is analogue) is trickier as that has samples on EEPROMs ...

Again, you're getting some minor details wrong. Yes the SDS7 used eproms, and, the SDS9 is mostly analogue and is based on the CEM 3394 synth on a chip as was many of their later products. But, the SDS9 uses samples for the snare. In fact, there were many choices for the sample and the eprom is user replaceable.

You can read more at this site http://www.simmons.synth.net/sds9/

See the little window up top? That's where you'd swap out the snare eproms.

but given that the original company is no more, that might not necessarily be a problem ... unless the new trademark holder decides to get arsey. Remember the Rhodes debacle? Quite legal to sample the Rhodes (being electro-mechanical) but the ambulance chaser who bought the trademark didn't allow any samples or products to use the Rhodes name, not even if it was disguised, and went around threatening litigation.

Yes, this is always a potential problem, however, it's a trademark and not a copyright issue.

[ghettosynth]

I've always been led to believe that the 909 toms were samples. Thank you for correcting me on that.

It's immaterial anyway - they sound like shite.

On that we agree completely.

Ha!

It's not just me then!

Frankly, I am a bit perplexed by the whole 808/909 obsession. They weren't that good in their time, less so even now. But what do I know?!

Not much, but that's fine, I always read stuff like that from people who don't really appreciate excellent analog musical instruments (the TR-909 toms' design is amazing and hence so is the sound) and most likely don't even know what they're talking about (you call this shit) but yeah, it's just opinions .

Yes, the design of pretty much all of the Roland analogue drums is amazing. The kick is really really interesting and I've studied it quite a bit. That said, as much as I respect the design, I don't like the sound of the toms, and no, I don't really like them in the track that you linked.

To answer the question about the obsession though, there really is something to the 909 kick and the clap, rim, snare, complemented it well. Add to that the knobs per voice including the cymbals and it made a nice live techno drum machine.

I wish the toms were samples, I would have replaced the eproms in mine with useful samples, or simply clicks to add additional click outputs.

The 808 is, in many ways, more interesting than the 909. It also built a following largely for the kick. I think that the perfect analogue drum machine would combine elements from both and wouldn't have ANY tom sounds at all!