ARP 2600 Clone?

[IncarnateX]

See guys. This is the reason why no available software emulation is gonna get you there. No matter how close the sound, you will have to convince your brain that you are sitting in front of such a beast, seeing it, feeling it, smelling it. Virtual tech has not taken us anywhere such a perfect hallucination yet, but maybe in a not too distant future? Though the day such a technology is available, I think the porn industry will be the ultimate winner.

[david.beholder]

See guys. This is the reason why no available software emulation is gonna get you there. No matter how close the sound, you will have to convince your brain that you are sitting in front of such a beast, seeing it, feeling it, smelling it.

At the same time in other thread you're complaining that U-he synths are cpu hogs and asking Urs for i-pad friendly version of Zebra.
I think you're simple on wrong forum. Gearslutz gonna fit you way better because "no matter how close the sound" price bias wouldn't let you write music with it.

[BasariStudios]

People forget that Hardware besides sounding better and you can physically feel it
hardware also has a smell too...which might sound funny but it is true...
Anyone ever sat in front of a big Modular and actually smell it?

[IncarnateX]

See guys. This is the reason why no available software emulation is gonna get you there. No matter how close the sound, you will have to convince your brain that you are sitting in front of such a beast, seeing it, feeling it, smelling it.

At the same time in other thread you're complaining that U-he synths are cpu hogs and asking Urs for i-pad friendly version of Zebra.
I think you're simple on wrong forum. Gearslutz gonna fit you way better because "no matter how close the sound" price bias wouldn't let you write music with it.

wtf? Are you on drugs? These things are totally unrelated. The above is not a complaint, but is about the psychological fact that no matter how good an emulation sounds you cannot make it look or feel like sitting in front of a real arp with the look, feeling and even smell. Never seen someone miss a point THAT MUCH!

And my post in Uhe repro lala wasn't a complaint either. MISS AGAIN, by lightyears. Read it again.

And Zebra is not an emulation. MISS x 3

Get sober!

[Autobot]

The above is not a complaint, but is about the psychological fact that no matter how good an emulation sounds you cannot make it look or feel like sitting in front of a real arp with the look, feeling and even smell. Never seen someone miss a point THAT MUCH!
And my post in Uhe repro lala wasn't a complaint either. MISS AGAIN, by lightyears.

Get sober!

Right. For one the sound is superior over haptic stimulus and sense of smell. This thread is crazy.

Software = low power consumption, recall settings, no space waste, lower price, maybe someday abandoned.

(analog) Hardware = hard knobs, smell, high power cost, need restoration from time to time, maybe someday unrecoverable spareparts

This thread is crazy.

[VariKusBrainZ]

The above is not a complaint, but is about the psychological fact that no matter how good an emulation sounds you cannot make it look or feel like sitting in front of a real arp with the look, feeling and even smell. Never seen someone miss a point THAT MUCH!
And my post in Uhe repro lala wasn't a complaint either. MISS AGAIN, by lightyears.

Get sober!

Right. For one the sound is superior over haptic stimulus and sense of smell. This thread is crazy.

Software = low power consumption, recall settings, no space waste, lower price, maybe someday abandoned.

(analog) Hardware = hard knobs, smell, high power cost, need restoration from time to time, maybe someday unrecoverable spareparts

This thread is crazy.

Dont forget polyphony and running as many copies of the plugins as your CPU can handle.

PLUS its so much easier to buy a new plugin without your better half finding out and demanding you take it back to the shop

[IncarnateX]

Right. For one the sound is superior over haptic stimulus and sense of smell.

You miss the point. Our senses are not competing with each other under normal circumstances, so it is not a question about which is superior to what. Our brain integrates information from the senses to a whole, Thus an arp consist of both sound, looks, haptic stimulation and even smell. Reducing this to comparing small snippets of wave files is therefore highly misleading from a psychological point of view. Here, to let you know a little more about how your brain works and perceive things, I have copied a post I made from an analog/digital discussion in the MeldaProduction Forum. Some of it may surprise you.

To me, most of this analogue-digital shite can be reduced to psychology. We are mostly discussing the nature of stimulation in terms of objective facts such as the instability and randomness of sound as if it doesn't mean a thing how the brain processes these stimuli on basis of training and cultural context.

Thing is that the brain is not necessarily found of instability from a hard-wired perspective because it is highly specialized to search for stable patterns in the environment. We know that the brain searches for patterns, which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective since it is crucial for animals to recognize what kind of creatures you can eat and which ones who like to eat you. On the other hand we also know that the brain gets habituated to constant stimulation to an extent, where it stops reacting on it (e.g. the ticking of a watch –now you hear it and now you don’t). Thus there is no evidence that the brain “values” or “prefer” either stabile patterns or constant variations over one another. Sheer survival is highly dependent of the recognition of both aspects of stimulation.

The study of both visual and auditory illusions show that the brain actually smooths out or enhance differences according to which patterns of stimulation it is trained to attend to or ignore. It also makes wholes of otherwise discrete stimulation . Check the studies of Gestalt Psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology and not at least the studies of auditory illusions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_illusion. This is not to say that we constantly hallucinate in our daily living but one consequence is that it is very easy to fool the brain into hearing something that is not given in the discrete parts of stimulation. A (funny) illustration of that is the discussion of “backmasking”, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backmasking which among other things is something that Rock bands have been accused of to induce subliminal Satanic messages to people. Here is an example of “Stairways to Heaven” played backwards:

First close your eyes and just listen. What you hear is probably some unintelligible mumbling. Now listen to it again and read the text while hearing it and suddenly the Satanic words are obvious to the brain.




You can try this with Justin Bieber as well, that naughty little demon:



Now I could post some classic social psychological experiments on the effects of cultural preferences, group pressure and such to further convince you how easily the brain is affected by the beliefs of its environment, but I am going to spare you because I think you know this already. Such experiments usually confirm our daily knowledge of such things and may only surprise in their demonstrations of how severe this effect can be.

At this point, it would be no crime from a psychological point of view to conceive the analog-digital phenomenon as sensitive to these facts as with any other kind of perceptual stimulation. Thus in the end, no matter what features of stimulation you can point to, there will be no direct links to how it is processed and whether we like it or not….though the cultural context can be indicative for a large amount of people.

Then there also is the question of multisensory integration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisensory_integration. In daily living the concept of e.g. an analog synth versus a digital synth cannot be reduced to listening to highly compressed mp3s matching tiny snippets of sound. Actually the look, the feel, yes maybe even the smell of the synth, play a part in your brains evaluation of its “sound”. Add to this your knowledge about which kind of synth it is, since this can direct your attention to specific aspects that you wouldn’t notice without this knowledge, e.g. searching for the variations (analog) or artificialness (digital) of the sound at an unnaturally detailed level.

And now I will say something that you may not expect from all this, namely that even given these circumstances, I still like the sound of analog synths a bit better than that of digital! BUT…the difference between me and many other seems to be that I do not make any illusions about this being caused by some analogue laws of stimulation affecting my value system in a 1:1 relationship. I know it is due to my upbringing with these synths, the knowledge that the synth is analog and not digital, and probably the cultural hype there is about analog synths as well. But in the end, I don’t give a f.u.c.k. about that as long as my brain somehow enables me to love the sound. As far as that goes, ignorance is bliss to me

Cheers

[Autobot]

Right. For one the sound is superior over haptic stimulus and sense of smell.

You miss the point. Our senses are not competing with each other under normal circumstances, so it is not a question about which is superior to what. Our brain integrates information from the senses to a whole, Thus an arp consist of both sound, looks, haptic stimulation and even smell. Reducing this to comparing small snippets of wave files is therefore highly misleading from a psychological point of view. Here, to let you know a little more about how your brain works and perceive things, I have copied a post I made from an analog/digital discussion in the MeldaProduction Forum. Some of it may surprise you.

To me, most of this analogue-digital shite can be reduced to psychology. We are mostly discussing the nature of stimulation in terms of objective facts such as the instability and randomness of sound as if it doesn't mean a thing how the brain processes these stimuli on basis of training and cultural context.

Thing is that the brain is not necessarily found of instability from a hard-wired perspective because it is highly specialized to search for stable patterns in the environment. We know that the brain searches for patterns, which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective since it is crucial for animals to recognize what kind of creatures you can eat and which ones who like to eat you. On the other hand we also know that the brain gets habituated to constant stimulation to an extent, where it stops reacting on it (e.g. the ticking of a watch –now you hear it and now you don’t). Thus there is no evidence that the brain “values” or “prefer” either stabile patterns or constant variations over one another. Sheer survival is highly dependent of the recognition of both aspects of stimulation.

The study of both visual and auditory illusions show that the brain actually smooths out or enhance differences according to which patterns of stimulation it is trained to attend to or ignore. It also makes wholes of otherwise discrete stimulation . Check the studies of Gestalt Psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology and not at least the studies of auditory illusions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_illusion. This is not to say that we constantly hallucinate in our daily living but one consequence is that it is very easy to fool the brain into hearing something that is not given in the discrete parts of stimulation. A (funny) illustration of that is the discussion of “backmasking”, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backmasking which among other things is something that Rock bands have been accused of to induce subliminal Satanic messages to people. Here is an example of “Stairways to Heaven” played backwards:

First close your eyes and just listen. What you hear is probably some unintelligible mumbling. Now listen to it again and read the text while hearing it and suddenly the Satanic words are obvious to the brain.




You can try this with Justin Bieber as well, that naughty little demon:



Now I could post some classic social psychological experiments on the effects of cultural preferences, group pressure and such to further convince you how easily the brain is affected by the beliefs of its environment, but I am going to spare you because I think you know this already. Such experiments usually confirm our daily knowledge of such things and may only surprise in their demonstrations of how severe this effect can be.

At this point, it would be no crime from a psychological point of view to conceive the analog-digital phenomenon as sensitive to these facts as with any other kind of perceptual stimulation. Thus in the end, no matter what features of stimulation you can point to, there will be no direct links to how it is processed and whether we like it or not….though the cultural context can be indicative for a large amount of people.

Then there also is the question of multisensory integration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisensory_integration. In daily living the concept of e.g. an analog synth versus a digital synth cannot be reduced to listening to highly compressed mp3s matching tiny snippets of sound. Actually the look, the feel, yes maybe even the smell of the synth, play a part in your brains evaluation of its “sound”. Add to this your knowledge about which kind of synth it is, since this can direct your attention to specific aspects that you wouldn’t notice without this knowledge, e.g. searching for the variations (analog) or artificialness (digital) of the sound at an unnaturally detailed level.

And now I will say something that you may not expect from all this, namely that even given these circumstances, I still like the sound of analog synths a bit better than that of digital! BUT…the difference between me and many other seems to be that I do not make any illusions about this being caused by some analogue laws of stimulation affecting my value system in a 1:1 relationship. I know it is due to my upbringing with these synths, the knowledge that the synth is analog and not digital, and probably the cultural hype there is about analog synths as well. But in the end, I don’t give a f.u.c.k. about that as long as my brain somehow enables me to love the sound. As far as that goes, ignorance is bliss to me

Cheers

Woah ... ... was just jokin. Maybe I forgot the emoticons to emphasis the meaning

[david.beholder]

wtf? Are you on drugs? These things are totally unrelated. The above is not a complaint, but is about the psychological fact

I think you're confusing words face and bs. Looks that's easy: FACT - something that has really occurred; BS - is what you've saying.
It's not you definitely need to try gearslutz where you'll find good company of delusional creatures who don't care about sound but find smell really important factor.

set of useless smiles for you:

p.s. just for your knowledge: zebra and virus try search

[IncarnateX]

wtf? Are you on drugs? These things are totally unrelated. The above is not a complaint, but is about the psychological fact

I think you're confusing words face and bs. Looks that's easy: FACT - something that has really occurred; BS - is what you've saying.
It's not you definitely need to try gearslutz where you'll find good company of delusional creatures who don't care about sound but find smell really important factor.

set of useless smiles for you:

p.s. just for your knowledge: zebra and virus try search

I have really no idea what you are talking about and it certainly seems that you have even lesser idea about what I am saying. I think any further acts of communication will be in vain, so let's just leave it at that

[david.beholder]

I have really no idea what you are talking about and it certainly seems that you have even lesser idea about what I am saying. I think any further acts of communication will be in vain, so let's just leave it at that

1. Initally Zebra is U-he Virus try search to find quite a recent talk about it
2. Any substructive synth is emulating single voice of Moog or whoever was there first
3. Lot of people would be happy with perfect 2600 emu and don't need physical copy so they don't give anything about smell
4. Original vs copy phenomenon was described by several generations of mostly french philosophers starting from mid 19th century

some smiles for you

[Meffy]

Having worked many years as a real-life electronic technician, I can state with absolute certainty that I'd rather avoid smelling electronics.

Few things are more off-putting than the odor of a burning transformer or exploded electrolytic capacitor.

[IncarnateX]

I have really no idea what you are talking about and it certainly seems that you have even lesser idea about what I am saying. I think any further acts of communication will be in vain, so let's just leave it at that

1. Initally Zebra is U-he Virus try search to find quite a recent talk about it
2. Any substructive synth is emulating single voice of Moog or whoever was there first
3. Lot of people would be happy with perfect 2600 emu and don't need physical copy so they don't give anything about smell
4. Original vs copy phenomenon was described by several generations of mostly french philosophers starting from mid 19th century

some smiles for you

Well, that doesn't change the fact that a software emu currently won't give you the same feeling and visions of sitting in front of the real thing.
Whether a close sound is enough to satisfy some people is beyond that point. An emu is an approximation and the usual failure is to think that this is only due to differences in sound, but in real life settings it is much more, visual appearance is of very great importance, smell may be in theory. All this comes down to research in multisensory integration and a lot other topics and is as such not disputable as a matter of opinions. Read my long ass post if you need links to research based approaches, which confirm my view.

Oh, and I surely didn't know Zebra is a Virus emulation. One of the best kept secrets I must say. It wasn't branded as such afaik and it's GUI certainly doesn't reveal anything about it either. Not that it really matters to the above.

[trimph1]

Nope. Not here either. Silicon controlled rectifiers that go poof like el chiconel is just as yuck.

[trimph1]

Physicality is not emulatable. You cannot emulate the feel of pulling or pushing in the cables for that. No matter what....