The Legend vs repro-1

[Urs]

But then wouldn't $50 monosynths compete against Repro-1 ?

I haven't said what we'd do for that price tag

[ghettosynth]

In any case, once they have the one Uhe vintage polysynth, there is going to be some degree of satisfaction and they won't necessarily feel the need to buy the next one, especially if it is much more expensive.

And if they have bought one Uhe monosynth where is the need to buy another....and so on.....

Yeah it probably wasn't the greatest of points as obviously, Diva, Zebra, A.C.E., Bazille, and Hive are all polysynths and yet we want more.

ACE, Bazille are different markets, Urs told you that. Just because some of us synth nerds buy more than one, doesn't mean that everyone does. I suspect that Zebra is a different market as well. Hive is certainly a different segment. ACE and Bazille probably compete with each other somewhat. Hive and Zebra are in classes by themselves. Both Repro-5 and Diva, however, will be proper high performance Uhe models of vintage polysynths. Making Repro-1 poly puts them in competition with each other.

What I heard from Urs is that Diva is his bread and butter and another "vintage" poly synth priced substantially lower will impact Diva sales and he cannot afford that.

Just because you might buy more than one or not think in these terms doesn't mean that you are representative of the majority of Uhe customers.

I know it's a more complicated of an issue in terms of pricing but even with a good explanation there are too many people who still won't accept it simply because it's not what they want to pay.

Makes no difference. You can never make these decisions base on a few individual opinions, you have to look at the aggregate data.

[sqigls]

I'll give you a hundred bucks for an OB-1 plugin, but apart from that, i don't think i'd buy any more mono synths.
Unless it's some awesome hardware.

[.jon]

Why no fish choice?

A single ReCat ate it.

Then that ReCat shall face the pitchforks and torches, for without fish, there is no KVR.

[egbert101]

It'd be a sad world if u-he didn't do a ReCat

If we do only one more, the Cat it is!

As for sales, we have yet to see where it goes. We sold about as many Repros in the first month as we sold Divas in her first year, but then we sell more Divas today than we did back then. In a rough picture, Diva and Hive have gone up in sales, Zebra stays constant, ACE and Bazille have declined to a lower level (but not died). We'll see where Repro is heading, and what it all means.

So the market is really where the bottom line is in terms of rationalizing what people want.

If there were an equation for soft synths, it would probably have quality, authenticity, functionality, ease of use and affordability within it. Placing everything into one variable without consideration for the other variables, might lead to a product that does not do very well, even if high quality or affordable. You get my drift.

[elxsound]

In any case, once they have the one Uhe vintage polysynth, there is going to be some degree of satisfaction and they won't necessarily feel the need to buy the next one, especially if it is much more expensive.

And if they have bought one Uhe monosynth where is the need to buy another....and so on.....

Yeah it probably wasn't the greatest of points as obviously, Diva, Zebra, A.C.E., Bazille, and Hive are all polysynths and yet we want more.

ACE, Bazille are different markets, Urs told you that. Just because some of us synth nerds buy more than one, doesn't mean that everyone does. I suspect that Zebra is a different market as well. Hive is certainly a different segment. ACE and Bazille probably compete with each other somewhat. Hive and Zebra are in classes by themselves. Both Repro-5 and Diva, however, will be proper high performance Uhe models of vintage polysynths. Making Repro-1 poly puts them in competition with each other.

What I heard from Urs is that Diva is his bread and butter and another "vintage" poly synth priced substantially lower will impact Diva sales and he cannot afford that.

Just because you might buy more than one or not think in these terms doesn't mean that you are representative of the majority of Uhe customers.

I know it's a more complicated of an issue in terms of pricing but even with a good explanation there are too many people who still won't accept it simply because it's not what they want to pay.

Makes no difference. You can never make these decisions base on a few individual opinions, you have to look at the aggregate data.

You don't have the aggregate data and neither do I. That was the second point.

The rest is just wasted space. Not even part of the same conversation.

[ghettosynth]

In any case, once they have the one Uhe vintage polysynth, there is going to be some degree of satisfaction and they won't necessarily feel the need to buy the next one, especially if it is much more expensive.

And if they have bought one Uhe monosynth where is the need to buy another....and so on.....

Yeah it probably wasn't the greatest of points as obviously, Diva, Zebra, A.C.E., Bazille, and Hive are all polysynths and yet we want more.

ACE, Bazille are different markets, Urs told you that. Just because some of us synth nerds buy more than one, doesn't mean that everyone does. I suspect that Zebra is a different market as well. Hive is certainly a different segment. ACE and Bazille probably compete with each other somewhat. Hive and Zebra are in classes by themselves. Both Repro-5 and Diva, however, will be proper high performance Uhe models of vintage polysynths. Making Repro-1 poly puts them in competition with each other.

What I heard from Urs is that Diva is his bread and butter and another "vintage" poly synth priced substantially lower will impact Diva sales and he cannot afford that.

Just because you might buy more than one or not think in these terms doesn't mean that you are representative of the majority of Uhe customers.

I know it's a more complicated of an issue in terms of pricing but even with a good explanation there are too many people who still won't accept it simply because it's not what they want to pay.

Makes no difference. You can never make these decisions base on a few individual opinions, you have to look at the aggregate data.

You don't have the aggregate data and neither do I. That was the second point.

You miss the point. I've already said that I don' have data, however, it doesn't matter what people accept or don't accept because you can't make decisions based off of that.

The rest is just wasted space. Not even part of the same conversation.

Nope! What I've presented is a reasonable theory based on the info that Urs has presented so far. Might be right, might be wrong. However, your first point is incorrect, you are overgeneralizing based on a misunderstanding of market segments. You cannot assume that just because Urs believes that Repro-5, a vintage emulation will compete with Diva, that Hive, a modern synth with intentionally reduced sonic performance, will also compete with Diva. However, maybe it would, except that it's priced at $149, not $99. So any assertion that it's the same thing completely misses the point. Zebra costs more than either, so it cannot be sabotaging Diva sales.

In fact, only ACE is substantially cheaper and even moderately similar by some wild stretch of the imagination and Urs has indicated that an update might give an opportunity to increase the price. My guess is that the modularity actually scares the majority of customers away. So, Bazille is also scary, and not really a substitute for a VA poly, that leaves Diva, Hive, and Zebra. Zebra's more expensive, Hive is compromised leaving Diva. But if Repro-5 is there at $99, well, that's also a really good emulation, and it's a LOT cheaper.

[elxsound]

In any case, once they have the one Uhe vintage polysynth, there is going to be some degree of satisfaction and they won't necessarily feel the need to buy the next one, especially if it is much more expensive.

And if they have bought one Uhe monosynth where is the need to buy another....and so on.....

Yeah it probably wasn't the greatest of points as obviously, Diva, Zebra, A.C.E., Bazille, and Hive are all polysynths and yet we want more.

ACE, Bazille are different markets, Urs told you that. Just because some of us synth nerds buy more than one, doesn't mean that everyone does. I suspect that Zebra is a different market as well. Hive is certainly a different segment. ACE and Bazille probably compete with each other somewhat. Hive and Zebra are in classes by themselves. Both Repro-5 and Diva, however, will be proper high performance Uhe models of vintage polysynths. Making Repro-1 poly puts them in competition with each other.

What I heard from Urs is that Diva is his bread and butter and another "vintage" poly synth priced substantially lower will impact Diva sales and he cannot afford that.

Just because you might buy more than one or not think in these terms doesn't mean that you are representative of the majority of Uhe customers.

I know it's a more complicated of an issue in terms of pricing but even with a good explanation there are too many people who still won't accept it simply because it's not what they want to pay.

Makes no difference. You can never make these decisions base on a few individual opinions, you have to look at the aggregate data.

You don't have the aggregate data and neither do I. That was the second point.

You miss the point. I've already said that I don' have data, however, it doesn't matter what people accept or don't accept because you can't make decisions based off of that.

The rest is just wasted space. Not even part of the same conversation.

Nope! What I've presented is a reasonable theory based on the info that Urs has presented so far. Might be right, might be wrong. However, your first point is incorrect, you are overgeneralizing based on a misunderstanding of market segments. You cannot assume that just because Urs believes that Repro-5, a vintage emulation will compete with Diva, that Hive, a modern synth with intentionally reduced sonic performance, will also compete with Diva. However, maybe it would, except that it's priced at $149, not $99. So any assertion that it's the same thing completely misses the point. Zebra costs more than either, so it cannot be sabotaging Diva sales.

In fact, only ACE is substantially cheaper and even moderately similar by some wild stretch of the imagination and Urs has indicated that an update might give an opportunity to increase the price. My guess is that the modularity actually scares the majority of customers away.

You are having an argument with yourself. You are arguing against points that are not my own.

[ghettosynth]

You are having an argument with yourself. You are arguing against points that are not my own.

No, but reading back I realized that you were countering Teksonik's point and not mine. Oh well, they can't all be gems!

[Cinebient]

It seems hard these days to please the crowd, especially if you have a name.
Sadly the market will bother big brands and more "famous" independent developers to act as a pure buisness company rather than trying to risk something for a really new thing or something against the rules of common synths etc.
I can understand that and the bigger a company grows the more plug-ins they have to "spit" out.
Maybe some famous developers should try to release something via a pseudonym and see what will happen.
So big brands have it more easy to sell stuff just because of the name but they also often have the problem that they can´t risk to try something experimental and such.
The market can also change fast these days, hardware and software getting more fragmentation and the need of support will grow too.
I could think if a small company have just 1-2 plug-ins not well placed in the market today it could be a big problem.
I know, no one want to hear it again but maybe it´s also time for U-he to place some little apps as additional income or as entree in another market which could (and will) grow. I´m not talking about ports, complete new things. Of course that could also be bad if things go worse....
I really love all U-he synths and bought a few of them, also Repro-1 but i really would like to see a brand like U-he does things none of the others seems to want to do, like creating a multi-touch optimized GUI for windows 10 f.e. The Repro-1 keyboard scream to me for live input and modulation via a big touch screen (i´m dreaming of Tanvas enabled touch screen with tactile feedback soon which are possible right now).
But as usual, the market will be too small for it.
I can only talk for myself but i find the common market a bit boring...even when it sounds fantastic. It´s all about just the sound, which is very important but it is not all. A lot synths sounds fanatastic but i feel saturation and looking more and more to GUI, performence control and new ways (i might even can´t think of yet) to be inspired.
And now forget all the nonsense i wrote and use Repro-1 or not.
I found the Legend a bit boring but love Repro-1.
The truth is the star of Repro-1 for me is Jaws and a 50$ FX plug-in like Jaws XL i would buy in a heartbeat.
I never bought the U-he FX plug-ins because i would just use 10% of it.
It would be maybe also an option to sell several smaller priced plug-ins instead of having to buy the whole "bundle".......whatever!
Have a nice day!

[RichN]

This thread makes me almost feel bad for having requested U-he doing a Prophet 5 emulation. However, I'm not in the 'Repro-1 should have been polyphonic camp'. If only because a polyphonic Pro-1 is not the same as a Pro-5. It has been clear from the onset what Repro-1 is and what it isn't. It is an accurate emulation of a classic monosynth. So it was never targeted at people who want a polysynth.

I have always wanted a Prophet 5 and I know that I probably will never own a real one. So I hope that U-he's Pro-5 will be as much a labour of love as Repro-1 is. A must buy for sure.

[martinjuenke]

Wonder if all you long-longer-longest post writers actually make music or just producing words, words, words...
By the way: opinions are opinions and seldom the one and only truth.
This thread is in some parts entertaining but in too many other parts really tiresome.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Wonder if all you long-longer-longest post writers actually make music or just producing words, words, words...
By the way: opinions are opinions and seldom the one and only truth.
This thread is in some parts entertaining but in too many other parts really tiresome.

I know, right? I, for one, dream of a world where people are able to make music, and still contribute to music forums. Not in our lifetimes, I bet

[spunkmuffin]

Well heaps of music is about pain and suffering so if this thread brings you down, write some music.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Reading some of Urs' posts I think the data that's being alluded to in the sales and customer feedback is:

1. There's a HUGE market for 1:1 emulations [at the U-he level of quality] that extend beyond Diva's approach. For instance, Diva's relative parameter ranges and fixed LFO/modulation structure prevents from being a 1:1 emulation of any one synth. This can be both a strength (when you want polyphony, or need two LFO's, etc.) and a weakness (parameter ranges don't match hardware, doesn't look/operate/feel like the original, etc.).

2. Even if you do an emulation of a monosynth, there's going to be folks who ask [and those are the nice ones] for polyphony.

The conclusions I'd draw are that:

1. You're probably right, doing strict emulations of monosynths is going to be a headache because of polyphony requests (maybe if you make them cheap enough people won't complain, but that remains to be seen).

2. If you're going to do a 1:1 emulation of a monosynth ever again, you'd probaby have to consider a poly mode like The Legend did. Open question: will this cut into Diva sales? That also remains to be seen.

Urs, have you considered continuing to release monosynths with an added Poly mode, and adding each of those osc+filter+env modules to Diva as a bonus for having bought the big-lady? I know you feel like there might be overlap with what's already there, but what Diva customer wouldn't be thrilled to watch her grow at a rapid pace? It would certainly be a huge value add from the perspective of Diva customers and I'd honestly buy the 1:1 emulations anyway.

And think about when you say, "there's no point in adding Prophet modules to Diva, we've already got modules that get close" from a customer's perspective. Prophet modules are regularly requested for Diva despite the fact you think Diva already gets close enough. And honestly, as a Diva customer, I don't know what module you're talking about (assuming the Jupiter/Juno) because I don't know jack about synth design and chips and whatnot. I know there's a Moog module, Jupiter module, MS-20, etc. That's how my mind works (not Dual VCO, Curtis chips, etc.). So the addition of a Prophet osc/filter/env combo followed by an Octave Kat osc/filter/env, followed by a Prodigy osc/filter/env would be fantastic.

I feel like there'd be huge success in a hybrid approach of:

1. Here's some 1:1 emulations of classic synths (at $99 or less depending on the effort), some were original mono synths but we added a few voices as a poly option, some were poly synths where we've got a mono mode, combined with...

2. Just to make owning Diva even more awesome, every Diva customer is going to get some modules from the "classic line" every time we release something new in that line....

Diva ownership would become even more attractive in that type of model (I'm thinking more sales, not fewer). Meanwhile, the more purist types still get their classic synths (which I love too).