First official SONAR 4 review is in!

[LoRez]

I've tried Live4 and Sonar4 demos in the last few weeks and have to say I like Live4 more, although I rarely use loops.

Sonar isn't a bad program at all, but it makes me cry after usin T and Live4 for a while.

I tried S4 mainly because I heard it has awesome loop handling. Could somebody explain how that works?

I couldn't find it (will have to mess around for a longer time I guess)

K

Not directing this at anyone in particular, but I just don't get how anyone can compare these two programs (Sonar and Live). They are such totally different beasts. Live is nice for drums, dragging loops around on the fly, getting ideas down and for DJ-type live mixing. However, how anyone thinks it is the end all be all do everything application is beyond me. No PDC, lack of a serious pro console, no serious metering (as far as i can tell), no support for video, etc. These are just some of the things that, to me, you need something like Sonar for. NOT KNOCKING LIVE. REPEAT. It works great at what it does. But to honestly say "it's all I need" says more about your needs as a user than the app itself. I can see how someone could get a project started with it. I can see how someone would do a DJ-type set with, jam with it, etc. I fail to see how someone could do an album on it soley, much less score a film or commercial. Just my opinion (although I would argue an educated one). Flame me if you must (zipping up flame retardent suit...)

[stale bread]

whats up headquest, ummm let me see, I believe you're doing it the right way with the sends, you add effx to the send tracks and the master track in the same way as you do a regular track, maybe try double clicking on a send track and then drag the effect over. I'm thinking maybe your send tracks just werent getting selected propperly.

controlling apps outside of live with live is something i don't do but I know that it's possible cause lots of people over on the ableton forum do that, in paticular search for fax-1, he's the one putting Reason through the ringer with Live 4.


Eric, sorry i missunderstood, i agree with you about that, but I do believe that abletons gonna improve that.


loRez I agree with you too but i don't think that most people are comparing the two in their entirety like that, for instance I don't think anyone is trying to compare 'film'
features of other apps with live cause live doesn't have film features but the biggest misconception is that it's a loop app. you can record jazz, rock or anything you want into
it, on one side, the session view its like a huge modular sampler with all its routing options and on the other side the arrangement view, its like a standard daw, the only thing
making one loop music in live is the individual, all you have to do is turn off looping just like you'd disable looping in sonars audio clips. so thats what people are thinking when comparing the two but we all know that sonar has more stuff in it than live, personaly thats the way live users like it.

on a side note many proffesionals use live and quite seriously i might add to make albums, and some people like hans zimmer use live for scoring as well, albeit thats not all he uses. so i agree with you on a technical basis, no pdc
and whatnot, but people making alot more money than all of us
use and take Live quite seriously in the pro material they produce and i'm not talking about people who load up some sample cds and just trigger loops.,,, the big live myth.
every day I feel more and more like Eric said that Live is a great combination for another app, in reality Live is all I need and I had lost interest in my other apps which were sonar, fruity, reason, but what live has done for most people is breathed new life into the other apps that they use
and now i'm beginning to see that myself.

[stale bread]

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=reviews&sub=list

these are just a few quotes from people of alot of diff backgrounds regarding live, only look if you're interested the statement that i'm making about live is only that its not just for djs and loopheads and alot of well known folks have finally figured this out. but this thread I think is suppose to be about sonar so at least lets not just be talking about Live cause i feel like I'm unintensionaly disrespecting someone.

[LoRez]

whats up headquest, ummm let me see, I believe you're doing it the right way with the sends, you add effx to the send tracks and the master track in the same way as you do a regular track, maybe try double clicking on a send track and then drag the effect over. I'm thinking maybe your send tracks just werent getting selected propperly.

controlling apps outside of live with live is something i don't do but I know that it's possible cause lots of people over on the ableton forum do that, in paticular search for fax-1, he's the one putting Reason through the ringer with Live 4.


Eric, sorry i missunderstood, i agree with you about that, but I do believe that abletons gonna improve that.


loRez I agree with you too but i don't think that most people are comparing the two in their entirety like that, for instance I don't think anyone is trying to compare 'film'
features of other apps with live cause live doesn't have film features but the biggest misconception is that it's a loop app. you can record jazz, rock or anything you want into
it, on one side, the session view its like a huge modular sampler with all its routing options and on the other side the arrangement view, its like a standard daw, the only thing
making one loop music in live is the individual, all you have to do is turn off looping just like you'd disable looping in sonars audio clips. so thats what people are thinking when comparing the two but we all know that sonar has more stuff in it than live, personaly thats the way live users like it.

on a side note many proffesionals use live and quite seriously i might add to make albums, and some people like hans zimmer use live for scoring as well, albeit thats not all he uses. so i agree with you on a technical basis, no pdc
and whatnot, but people making alot more money than all of us
use and take Live quite seriously in the pro material they produce and i'm not talking about people who load up some sample cds and just trigger loops.,,, the big live myth.
every day I feel more and more like Eric said that Live is a great combination for another app, in reality Live is all I need and I had lost interest in my other apps which were sonar, fruity, reason, but what live has done for most people is breathed new life into the other apps that they use
and now i'm beginning to see that myself.

All very tactfully and well put. Just to clarify, I didn't mean to suggest that LIVE isn't "pro" or that pro's don't take it seriously as I know they do. It's just that pro's also use other stuff to finish the product. I also realize you can record whatever you want into LIVE, in any style. It's just that, from a mixing and engineering standpoint (and of course film, but that is admittedly beside the point) I find it lacking, which I think is totally fine as I don't believe this is its main purpose or focus. Basically I'm saying it doesn't do EVERYTHING better than other apps, rendering all other apps useless, as is sometimes the tone of posts I read (not yours). Again, let me reiterate that it does many things quite well and exactly matches with some peoples "workflow" and it has raised the bar on some aspects of music production on computers.

[WillieJenkins]

Agreed, Post-tracking, (ie, mixing and mastering) is BRUTAL in live, due to a number of factors, but again, that said, its really a brilliant application imo.

With Sonar, Logic, Cubase etc, these applications feel like a tool, a program used to arrange and mix music, Live really feels like an instrument to me.

When I pick up my sax, or flute, or sit at the piano, it inspires me, it gets my creative juices flowing, this is how I feel about Live. Just mucking around in Live feels really inspirational. This is the only host I've ever found that makes me feel that way.

I can't express enough how happy I am to be using the Sonar4 / Live4 combo its pretty much perfect for me

[StrangeCat]

hey man that's the way I see Live as an instrument.
I still use Sonar for the mix down and mastering.
but Live really does feel like an instrument.
sorry I am getting off topic. I'll have to check out Sonar 4 thanks

[TeeLangSun]

I've tried Live4 and Sonar4 demos in the last few weeks and have to say I like Live4 more, although I rarely use loops.

Sonar isn't a bad program at all, but it makes me cry after usin T and Live4 for a while.

I tried S4 mainly because I heard it has awesome loop handling. Could somebody explain how that works?

I couldn't find it (will have to mess around for a longer time I guess)

K

What would really be awesome, is if it were able to move a slice around. As soon as I clicked on and previewed a single slice in the demo, I immediately and instinctively tried to move the slice. It doesn't work like that. That's what I'm accustomed to doing. Using pre-existing slices has never been interesting to me, but chopping up a loop and rearranging it is what I do with every piece I make.

Other things I've noticed is that you can now move midi notes and audio clips without the glitching that used to happen with everything you moved so that has greatly improved. Key bindings has improved %150 to be on par with all the other big sequencers. Interface is getting more cluttered with each update. I like the customizeable color schemes. Piano roll unfortunately is still as poor as before. It's strange that you can't just select the first tool on the toolbar and select notes, move notes "in all directions", preview notes, duplicate notes, select a group of notes and duplicate and move them etc. It still requires a couple of tools to do all of that and the one tool that can grab multiple notes, cannot preview a note and the tool that can preview a note, can't grab more than a single note. The piano roll is the one thing that's still keeping me from updating my old copy of Sonar 1 XL which I've never gotten much work out of. Also, there's still a some weird "window" behavior that's never been addressed. I could probably live with that but the piano roll needs help.

[WillieJenkins]

just out of curiosity, what is your left hand doing while your right is using the mouse?

I can somewhat see the 'single-tool does it all' argument, but imo, sometimes its nice to group functionality into different tools, so that the potential of doing things you don't want isn't as great. If you learn the keyboard shortcuts to each tool you use in piano roll, its actually pretty quick/painless/easy.

Most of the people I know who compose large orchestral scores prefer Sonar on the PC for this very fact. MIDI editing is quick/easy/superior to most other implementations. However, the dance/electronic community seems to think Sonar is underpowered in that respect. Kind of interesting.

But my workflow tip is to learn the shortcuts, and also, all the interface things you don't need can be easily removed (track inspector, navigator view).
My initial template looks almost identical to my old sonar2.2xl template.

BTW: I agree on the moving the slice around, that would be awesome.

-Eric

[TeeLangSun]

just out of curiosity, what is your left hand doing while your right is using the mouse?

I can somewhat see the 'single-tool does it all' argument, but imo, sometimes its nice to group functionality into different tools, so that the potential of doing things you don't want isn't as great. If you learn the keyboard shortcuts to each tool you use in piano roll, its actually pretty quick/painless/easy.

Keyboard shortcuts are different from key modifyers. Keyboard shortcuts, as of version 4, are more than well enough accounted for.

Having a different tool for every different action an everything else you stated is all fine, as an option. I don't mind. But what is your argument against having a key modifyer that allows a single tool to do everything? That someone might accidentally misuse it? Definately, this is the first time I've ever heard that. But I don't suppose it can be alltogether such a big problem since so many applications do seem to go that route as well as providing a different tool for every action. Anyone worried about doing something wrong by using a key modifyer can always continue to use the assortment of tools. I know people who do just that. Even the fastest of them are still slower than using a key modifyer though.

[TeeLangSun]

Interesting. I just did a Control A to select all the midi notes in a piano roll, then delete to remove them all and all of the audio parts on all other tracks in the Tracks view, which wasn't even visible at the time, were deleted at the same time. This is 100% reproduceable.

[billybk1]

Using pre-existing slices has never been interesting to me, but chopping up a loop and rearranging it is what I do with every piece I make.

The Cyclone DXi lets you rearrange and trigger slices.

[billybk1]

Piano roll unfortunately is still as poor as before. It's strange that you can't just select the first tool on the toolbar and select notes, move notes "in all directions", preview notes, duplicate notes, select a group of notes and duplicate and move them etc. It still requires a couple of tools to do all of that and the one tool that can grab multiple notes, cannot preview a note and the tool that can preview a note, can't grab more than a single note. The piano roll is the one thing that's still keeping me from updating my old copy of Sonar 1 XL which I've never gotten much work out of.

I find SONAR's MIDI editing to be quite strong & robust and by using the right editing tool, the Draw Line Tool and left/right mouse clicks and modifier keys, you can do virtually everything you want without changing tools. I copied this thorough and concise explanation from a fellow SONAR user and KVR forum member. I wish I could remember his name. But, using his modus operandi, really changed the way I edit MIDI, in SONAR, for the better. By using the Draw Line Tool exclusively, you can loop a section and edit all your MIDI, effortlessly, from the Piano Roll, with zero gapping. Now with the addition of the ultra programmable "Nudge" function, in SONAR 4,it is more powerful than ever. Whereas before I crawled.......... now I sprint


Open Sonar 3, insert a midi track, go to the Piano Roll, then:

There is a toolbar at the top with editing tools, quantizing tools, etc. The editing tools are normally positioned on the left. I like using the Draw Line tool. This is the one whose icon is a diagonal line. Click it to choose the Draw Line tool. Alternatively, you can choose the Draw tool which is the one whose icon looks like a pencil. Either way, the cursor will turn into a pencil shape.

In the Piano Roll editing grid:

o Left-click draws a new note.

o Alt-left-click on an existing note deletes that note. The cursor changes to the "delete note" icon when you hold down the Alt key and position the cursor over a note.

o Position the cursor on the righthand side of an existing note. The cursor changes into the "stretch" icon. Left-click and drag to change the RHS of the note which, of course, makes the note duration longer or shorter keeping the start time (LHS) of the note fixed.

o Position the cursor on the lefthand side of an existing note. The cursor changes again into the "stretch" icon. Left-click and drag to change the LHS of the note which makes the note duration longer or shorter while keeping the note end time fixed. This one -- LHS adjustment -- is new to Sonar 3, btw.

o Position the cursor over the middle of the note. The cursor changes to the "vertical move" icon. Left-click and drag and the note moves vertically -- changes pitch, IOW -- and is constrained to keep the same start and end times.

o Position the cursor over the lefthand side of the note but away from the edge of the note. The cursor changes to the "horizontal move" icon. Left-click and drag and the note moves horizontally and is constrained to keep the same pitch.

So this gives "add", "delete", "move up/down", "move left/right", "change duration, don't change start time", and "change duration, don't change end time" all without ever changing editing tools.

Rightclick on a note brings up a property sheet with "time, pitch, duration, velocity, channel". So you can set all of these precisely with numeric values without changing tools.

Click a note in the "Piano" display on the left selects all notes at that pitch. No need to change tools.

Drag in the timebar selects all notes within the selected time range. No need to change tools.

Cut/Copy/Paste follow the usual Windows conventions. I tend to use Ctrl-c and Ctrl-v. No need to change tools.

You can open up a pane at the bottom of the Piano Roll editor that shows midi event values -- note velocities, pitch wheel values, cc values, etc. Use the same Draw Line or Draw tool in that pane to draw midi event values. The differences is that Draw Line is constrained to drawing straight lines in this bottom pane whereas Draw will allow you to draw curves in the bottom pane.

I tend to do midi automation in the Track View with automation curves on the track or clip. So, I almost always use the Draw Line tool instead of the Draw tool and then use it in the bottom pane for quickly changing the velocity of notes. Again, no need to change tools.

About the only time that I ever switch away from the Draw Line tool is if I need to select some random group of notes. In that case, I switch to the Select tool -- the one shaped like an arrow. With this tool, you can select a group of notes by dragging a box around them. And/or you can select/deselect arbitrary notes by doing multiple Ctrl-left-clicks.

I hardly ever need to switch to the Select tool. But, even that is easy using the keyboard shortcuts: "S" for Select, "D" for Draw, "L" for Draw Line, etc. (lowercase or uppercase for the shortcut keys).

I can do hours of composing and editing and never change away from the Draw Line tool even once.

When I try to use other hosts and have to constantly change midi-editing tools, it really drives me crazy -- no matter how many shortcuts the host provides for switching back and forth. I just want to do it all -- or 99% of it, anyway -- with one tool.

[WillieJenkins]

TeeLangSun,

np, if you find pressing a key on your keyboard slow, thats fine, I was just throwing out some workflow suggestions

[TeeLangSun]

TeeLangSun,

np, if you find pressing a key on your keyboard slow, thats fine, I was just throwing out some workflow suggestions

I'm not sure why this is so confusing for you, but don't trouble yourself further, EricRichmond.

[WillieJenkins]

we aims to please