The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

[ThomasHelzle]

Oh yeah, can you use the mousewheel on faders and knobs in Bitwig? It kills me that you can't do that in ableton (afaik). After using Reaper where you can use the wheel on fader or ctrl+wheel to make fine adjustments (around .1db), having to "grab" the fader in ableton gets really old, especially for those small adjustments.

Good Question

SHIFT + left mouse is for fine control on faders and knobs, CTRL opens a value field (as you can see in the screenshots, many controls don't show values by default, but as soon as you move them, you see the values as a flyout - even if you just click them. With CTRL you get a kind of flyout-value-edit-box. Doubleclick is reset to default - which I prefer a lot over the awkward delete on a selected control in Live.

Right mouseclick opens the local menu, on knobs you also have a reset to defaults, "Learn control mapping" for midi control and "Create automation lane".

ATM the mousewheel does nothing here (I don't use a mouse normally so I just double checked). Well, that could be easy to implement later I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

What everybody wants here (my impression) is to basically get an early demo version to see if BW is for him or not and what it is all about.

Not exactly. Thomas you seem like a decent person so please don't take this as a personal attack, however, you have assumed a lot with that statement. Some of us have a lot of experience in alpha, beta, regression, blah-blah-blah testing. Quite a few here do so for other companies currently. In addition, I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of us that code as well.

I don't have any hard feelings against not being selected. I volunteered because I was sure I could contribute. With that said I do think they missed an opportunity. Simple communication to those who had thrown their "hats in the ring" would have gotten them a lot of goodwill. Once they had that massive email list they sat on it. The only email I ever received from them was in the early spring of 2010 about a job opening(s).


Cheers.


p.s. Also, I don't think it's taken them that long to program this thing. 3-5 years would be an acceptable time-frame IMO.

I agree with you, but I also don't think you were the target of my post

"Everybody" was the wrong word, that is true.
"Many people on BW threads" would have been better I guess.
My fault, sorry.

I also agree with your statement about the development time, I think it's totally reasonable.

I only disagree about the "missed opportunity", not because I think it's wrong in it's core, but because I think it makes some assumptions that are not applicable to this case. Handling large amounts of testers in a positive, productive and timely manner takes a quite massive infrastructure and as much personal as coding the product itself if not more.

That is more true for an unreleased product, where testing also means that you have to educate people who just don't know yet how to use the product. You will get tons of questions about how this or that works or bugs that are just missing knowledge about how something is supposed to work.
Again, an open Beta for Live is (slightly) easier to conduct since at least your users know all the basics already.

So no hard feelings, I guess I was a bit irritated yesterday evening

Cheers,

Tom

[Ogopogo]

Good Question

SHIFT + left mouse is for fine control on faders and knobs, CTRL opens a value field (as you can see in the screenshots, many controls don't show values by default, but as soon as you move them, you see the values as a flyout - even if you just click them. With CTRL you get a kind of flyout-value-edit-box. Doubleclick is reset to default - which I prefer a lot over the awkward delete on a selected control in Live.

Right mouseclick opens the local menu, on knobs you also have a reset to defaults, "Learn control mapping" for midi control and "Create automation lane".

ATM the mousewheel does nothing here (I don't use a mouse normally so I just double checked). Well, that could be easy to implement later I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

Bummer. It's cool about that other stuff though. I do really like that they left all those numbers out of the gui, and double-click to reset does make more sense to me. Btw, what do you use if you're on a 30 inch monitor if not a mouse?

[ThomasHelzle]

Good Question

SHIFT + left mouse is for fine control on faders and knobs, CTRL opens a value field (as you can see in the screenshots, many controls don't show values by default, but as soon as you move them, you see the values as a flyout - even if you just click them. With CTRL you get a kind of flyout-value-edit-box. Doubleclick is reset to default - which I prefer a lot over the awkward delete on a selected control in Live.

Right mouseclick opens the local menu, on knobs you also have a reset to defaults, "Learn control mapping" for midi control and "Create automation lane".

ATM the mousewheel does nothing here (I don't use a mouse normally so I just double checked). Well, that could be easy to implement later I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

Bummer. It's cool about that other stuff though. I do really like that they left all those numbers out of the gui, and double-click to reset does make more sense to me. Btw, what do you use if you're on a 30 inch monitor if not a mouse?

I use a Wacom Intuos Touch 5 M graphics tablet for my two screens - one 30" and one 22".
I'm a pen-tablet user for ages - my first one was a huge and very thick serial wacom UD1212 which occupied half of my desk - but it was a total breakthrough for me regarding the interaction with (graphics) software - at that time mice had heavy rubber balls in them and were a total pain for any kind of drawing...

And before you ask: No, BW doesn't really support tablets yet, so sliders and rotary knobs move way too fast when handled with the pen, although with SHIFT it's manageable with some training. It's "on the list" though... and to be expected a bit sooner as in Live, where it took them until I think version 8 and still is only an option in Options.txt...

Cheers,

Tom

[Ogopogo]

That's cool. The use of the mouse is kinda starting to stick out to me as outdated especially when it comes to music stuff, seeing as how things are getting more and more portable, and more friendly to home studios where you have one person doing everything instead of a "pro tools operator" and your band with instruments in hand waiting to be recorded. Plus you always have interest in control surfaces and lately stuff like Push and Maschine seems to be pushing that further.

I'm one of those home studio people and I get tired of reaching over awkwardly to the computer to start a new take or to tweak some effect with guitar in hand.

Trackpads seem like they are limited, the one on the last laptop I had was so tedious to use I only used it when I was on the toilet or something. I've heard macs are better though.

People are raving about Leap Motion, but I think the applications are probably limited due to gorilla arm.

I think touchscreens are probably the future, even though they suck for accuracy and response right now. I hope we see daws with dedicated touchscreen interfaces and stylus optimization eventually. Right now you can get controller apps, but those don't have access to every feature so there's always something that you're going to need to go back to the computer for. That's the problem with most control surfaces, they don't free you from the mouse, and going back and forth is complicated enough to balance out any convenience you gained in the first place.

[pdxindy]

you jumped the subject from the issue being discussed- that they've announced something really early and changed the testing procedure with little explanation, that's the issue

They can change their testing procedure whenever they want. It's their project, and not yours. There is no issue except your petty sense of self entitlement when you are not doing any of the work to stick your nose in and try to tell the people doing work what to do. Don't like how they do it? Go make your own host... Oh wait, that would be some actual work.

?

I've never understood this. Why is it petty or self entitled? Oh I understand you don't agree with his POV, but I don't understand why it's petty of self entitled?

Mr HBB declares that there is an 'issue'. He knows absolutely nothing about the actual circumstances at Bitwig and has not even the faintest idea why this or that decision is taken, yet he presumes to understand things and make declarations about issues and of course contained in that is the subtle insinuation that he would do things better.

I have no affiliation with Bitwig at all, but I have worked on and initiated large projects that have a public aspect (known to the public). It is a hard and humbling task to build something good in the world... especially when there are lots of people who will come around, feed on the vitality of the project and simultaneously attempt to tear it down.

btw, I love cat photos...

[pdxindy]

Good Question

SHIFT + left mouse is for fine control on faders and knobs, CTRL opens a value field (as you can see in the screenshots, many controls don't show values by default, but as soon as you move them, you see the values as a flyout - even if you just click them. With CTRL you get a kind of flyout-value-edit-box. Doubleclick is reset to default - which I prefer a lot over the awkward delete on a selected control in Live.

Right mouseclick opens the local menu, on knobs you also have a reset to defaults, "Learn control mapping" for midi control and "Create automation lane".

ATM the mousewheel does nothing here (I don't use a mouse normally so I just double checked). Well, that could be easy to implement later I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

Bummer. It's cool about that other stuff though. I do really like that they left all those numbers out of the gui, and double-click to reset does make more sense to me. Btw, what do you use if you're on a 30 inch monitor if not a mouse?

I use a Wacom Intuos Touch 5 M graphics tablet for my two screens - one 30" and one 22".
I'm a pen-tablet user for ages - my first one was a huge and very thick serial wacom UD1212 which occupied half of my desk - but it was a total breakthrough for me regarding the interaction with (graphics) software - at that time mice had heavy rubber balls in them and were a total pain for any kind of drawing...

And before you ask: No, BW doesn't really support tablets yet, so sliders and rotary knobs move way too fast when handled with the pen, although with SHIFT it's manageable with some training. It's "on the list" though... and to be expected a bit sooner as in Live, where it took them until I think version 8 and still is only an option in Options.txt...

Cheers,

Tom

It is an ongoing area of limitation... data input... I have a tablet too, but I never use it for Live or audio in general.

[ThomasHelzle]

especially when there are lots of people who will come around, feed on the vitality of the project and simultaneously attempt to tear it down.

This "feeding on the vitality" is something that always fascinated me.
We all do it in one way or other (I do it by "being the betatester" and feeding on the general interest for BW, others do it by deteriorating threads or by harassing or insulting - basically the whole Troll thing is "feeding on the vitality" of others) but it is seldom recognized as what it is.

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

That's cool. The use of the mouse is kinda starting to stick out to me as outdated especially when it comes to music stuff, seeing as how things are getting more and more portable, and more friendly to home studios where you have one person doing everything instead of a "pro tools operator" and your band with instruments in hand waiting to be recorded. Plus you always have interest in control surfaces and lately stuff like Push and Maschine seems to be pushing that further.

I'm one of those home studio people and I get tired of reaching over awkwardly to the computer to start a new take or to tweak some effect with guitar in hand.

Trackpads seem like they are limited, the one on the last laptop I had was so tedious to use I only used it when I was on the toilet or something. I've heard macs are better though.

People are raving about Leap Motion, but I think the applications are probably limited due to gorilla arm.

I think touchscreens are probably the future, even though they suck for accuracy and response right now. I hope we see daws with dedicated touchscreen interfaces and stylus optimization eventually. Right now you can get controller apps, but those don't have access to every feature so there's always something that you're going to need to go back to the computer for. That's the problem with most control surfaces, they don't free you from the mouse, and going back and forth is complicated enough to balance out any convenience you gained in the first place.

I get RSI from a mouse, but never from the pen.

I had hopes that the Wacom Touch tablet would somehow function in absolute mode like the pen, so it could be used in a similar way as a touch screen (it even has multitouch) but without touching the screen (which I find awkward). Well, it turned out the touch-part is basically just like the pad of a laptop. It's not really worth getting. The multitouch is only used for some fixed commands...

What I love about the pen is, that you go to a certain position and your mouse is there - you develop very fast muscle memory and don't have to push the mouse pointer around so much as just pointing directly at what you want. For painting and drawing, nothing else can so far really beat a tablet - for music, tablets are not widespread enough to be supported, otherwise I'm sure there would be interesting uses for pressure-sensitivity and pen-tilt etc.

Leap Motion seems more like a fun toy, or maybe good for some performances, but I can't imagine it for precise work from the videos I've seen.

Wacom has Tablet-Screens that react to the pen exactly like a tablet, and that is pretty cool since you draw ON your artwork directly - that combined with touch could be a winning combination, but still you need your screen lying flat in front of you for it to work...

Recently I saw a video for sonar where the artist had a normal screen in a normal position upright and a touchscreen flat on the table but tilted up to be usable behind his keyboard - that could be an interesting combination.

I personally have my wacom im front of my (text)keyboard which works nicely here.

I'm not fully convinced of any of the current solutions yet, but am very happy that at least there finally is some motion in the in and output field where for ages there was none...

Cheers,

Tom

[humanbeingbeing]

you jumped the subject from the issue being discussed- that they've announced something really early and changed the testing procedure with little explanation, that's the issue

They can change their testing procedure whenever they want. It's their project, and not yours. There is no issue except your petty sense of self entitlement when you are not doing any of the work to stick your nose in and try to tell the people doing work what to do. Don't like how they do it? Go make your own host... Oh wait, that would be some actual work.

?

I've never understood this. Why is it petty or self entitled? Oh I understand you don't agree with his POV, but I don't understand why it's petty of self entitled?

Mr HBB declares that there is an 'issue'. He knows absolutely nothing about the actual circumstances at Bitwig and has not even the faintest idea why this or that decision is taken, yet he presumes to understand things and make declarations about issues and of course contained in that is the subtle insinuation that he would do things better.

I have no affiliation with Bitwig at all, but I have worked on and initiated large projects that have a public aspect (known to the public). It is a hard and humbling task to build something good in the world... especially when there are lots of people who will come around, feed on the vitality of the project and simultaneously attempt to tear it down.

btw, I love cat photos...

You are correct, I have no idea what is going on at Bitwig since I read 'coming soon' in Jan 2012, because I havent been told anything. Thx for continuing on PDX. Same old story. "subtle insinuation" as in no insinuation at all... your posts are asinine.

[DanteUruzu]

This is semi-random but I'm going to say it anyway!

I think Bitwig will release on or very close to Halloween. I mean, their color scheme is Black and Orange, so it seems logical. Am I the only one thinking this?

[hibidy]

You are not the first person to mention it!

[The Mantra]

Since this thread has devolved back into cat picks, speculation and trolling, I'll make make my contribution(in speculation ).

Assuming that its true that Beta ends on November 1, I suspect that the final Nov 1 build or the very next build after that will be the demo build. I predict that that demo build will be available to download shortly after beta closes (around early mid November) and that product will be available for sale around the time the initial demo trial periods lapse.

Sorry but no Bitwig for Halloween cat. You should probably go find a Thanksgiving cat.

[Ogopogo]

Where are getting nov 1 from?

[ChiTown24]

Where are getting nov 1 from?

if I had to guess I'd say it's the date the current beta expires.