Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[Jac459]

Ok try this: put the audio buffer to 256 samples. Load a single avenger instance and browse thru the factory library, while playing a bunch of notes. I can see drastic spikes here and there, even on my m1 pro, might depend on the preset, but not at all on the number of oscs. Now compare that with zebra 2 or hive.

Ok, I'll do later today. I think I'll compare with Falcon too. I just have Hive, not zebra.

Also Hive is CLAP so cpu management is supposed to be better.

Ok, I did test the VPS Avenger on Apple Silicon. It was playing a complex melody in Bitwig while quickly circulating the presets (complex presets ARP).
NO spike on CPU found. Overall low CPU usage, similar to Spire.

BUT

When I switched to a multi loop bank (always where I have issues). I found my CPU having a lot of spikes, regardless of if I change the preset or not.
Basically I was at 20% usage in average but frequent (more than one per second) spike of CPU up to 70%.
I am on M2 Pro. 16GB Ram.

[zvenx]

I think very important to this conversation more than even computer specs is what buffer size you are using.
Manuel uses 512 which I could never ever use to record, and indeed at that sample buffer size I don't see spikes either.
However I use 64, 128 in a crunch so I do get spikes from this (and phase plant but nothing else really and I have most everything).
rsp

[Chipi]

Windows 11 64bit, NO problems here. Uses less cpu than many other popular synths.

Seems it was already to hard for you to properly read what I wrote above. Avenger behaves poorly regarding performance on any kind of system, because of cpu spikes. And it seems that you can't see spikes in your DAW.

@Jac459 For example try "AR charting atmo chord arp 1/2" from factory/arps. Spikes a lot here, even only using ONE note and 3-5 oscs at once. And my machine has a M1pro which is way faster than most intel machines, also the memory bandwidth is a ton faster. Using 48kHz, 256samples.

I think something is very fishy with the voice allocation code, since the spikes always seem to happen on a note start, so it is more obvious while using an arp. Also the sampler osc doe not seem to be the fastest out there, either. Compare this with any other commercial plugin, you won't find any spikes, for good technical reasons.

Cut the Drama Hanz

I think the one who keeps going around in circles here clinging to his beloved M1 that doesn't work is you. Avenger works incredibly well for thousands of users under normal system, memory and configuration conditions. You could have the fastest processor and yet the configuration is so bad that it would never work. The M1 is not a guarantee of anything, it is fast YES! but if the system peripherals, memory, disk and other MAC variables are poorly configured, then you will continue to cry with spikes as before. The 64bit processor I use runs at 5.0 KHz as fast or faster than your M1 under windows 11 and on Mixcraft 9.0 Avenger it literally flies. Snappy and with a tremendous final sound, no spike of any kind. The buffer I always use is 256 and to play up to 2048 buffer because in heavy projects are the effects that heat up the engine, it is not VPS. On the other hand, Bitwig still has an 'average' performance with the handling of many plug-ins on the market and full compatibility is often questionable as Bitwig is still a DAW that is still in its infancy. In Studio One v6 Avenger also works great. I advise you to get rid of the spike drama and buy a computer that is up to the quality of the synthesizer that Avenger is.

[Jac459]

I think something is very fishy with the voice allocation code, since the spikes always seem to happen on a note start, so it is more obvious while using an arp. Also the sampler osc doe not seem to be the fastest out there, either. Compare this with any other commercial plugin, you won't find any spikes, for good technical reasons.

Interresting find actually Hanz.

You are right indeed. I have small spikes appearing and I can hear subtle clicks at 10 instances of the arp 1 (with 48khz/256) and at 8 instances when buffer is 64...

Doesn't seems normal...

Tried a complex Arpeggio with Falcon. 29 components (wavetables, reverbs, filters) in Falcon. Tried with 30 instances. The CPU doesn't break a sweat (still with 64 as buffer).

So finally I see it. You are 100% right, there is something fishy.

[Jac459]

The 64bit processor I use runs at 5.0 KHz as fast or faster than your M1 under windows 11 and on Mixcraft 9.0 Avenger it literally flies. Snappy and with a tremendous final sound, no spike of any kind. The buffer I always use is 256 and to play up to 2048 buffer because in heavy projects are the effects that heat up the engine, it is not VPS. On the other hand, Bitwig still has an 'average' performance with the handling of many plug-ins on the market and full compatibility is often questionable as Bitwig is still a DAW that is still in its infancy. In Studio One v6 Avenger also works great. I advise you to get rid of the spike drama and buy a computer that is up to the quality of the synthesizer that Avenger is.

Hello Chili, can you please try to copy past instances with the same arpeggio and try to run multiple instances and see how much you need to have some (very subtle) cracks.
Buffer at 64.

[Chipi]

I think something is very fishy with the voice allocation code, since the spikes always seem to happen on a note start, so it is more obvious while using an arp. Also the sampler osc doe not seem to be the fastest out there, either. Compare this with any other commercial plugin, you won't find any spikes, for good technical reasons.

Interresting find actually Hanz.

You are right indeed. I have small spikes appearing and I can hear subtle clicks at 10 instances of the arp 1 (with 48khz/256) and at 8 instances when buffer is 64...

Doesn't seems normal...

Tried a complex Arpeggio with Falcon. 29 components (wavetables, reverbs, filters) in Falcon. Tried with 30 instances. The CPU doesn't break a sweat (still with 64 as buffer).

So finally I see it. You are 100% right, there is something fishy.

It makes no sense to use 64 buffering with Avenger or any other synthesizer.

A buffer is a temporary storage area in a computer's memory where audio data is stored while it is being processed. When you play or record audio in a DAW, the audio data is first captured by your audio interface, which converts the analog signal to a digital format that can be processed by your computer.

The audio data is then sent to your computer's CPU for processing, but it cannot be processed in real-time because the CPU needs time to perform calculations and apply effects. This means that the audio data must be temporarily stored in a buffer until it is ready to be processed.

The size of the buffer determines how much audio data can be stored and processed at once. A smaller buffer size means that the audio data is processed more frequently, resulting in lower latency or delay between when you play a note on your MIDI keyboard and when you hear the sound. However, smaller buffer sizes (64) require more processing power from your computer's CPU, which can cause audio glitches or dropouts if your computer is not powerful enough to handle the load.

A larger buffer size, on the other hand, reduces the strain on your CPU but can result in higher latency. This is because more audio data is stored in the buffer before it is processed, which means it takes longer for the processed audio to be sent back to your audio interface and played through your speakers or headphones.

In order to optimize the performance of your DAW, it's important to choose a buffer size that balances low latency with stable performance. This may involve adjusting the buffer size based on the complexity of your project or the specific hardware and software being used. Many DAWs also include tools for monitoring and adjusting buffer size, so you can fine-tune your settings to achieve the best possible performance.

[zvenx]

Lord Almighty.

Translation: I don't use 64 so no one should.


Some of us play and record music that requires lots of nuances and feels of not quantizing..
I dare anyone to record at 256 without needing to quantize, unless you doing block chords.

rsp

[Chipi]

Lord Almighty.

Translation: I don't use 64 so no one should.


Some of us play and record music that requires lots of nuances and feels of not quantizing..
I dare anyone to record at 256 without needing to quantize, unless you doing block chords.

rsp

I'm sorry you don't understand how today's computers work and their resource limits, you keep using 64 and continue with your spike dramas, we who know, will continue to enjoy Avenger.

[zvenx]

Did you read that only two software out of the hundreds that I own spike? Avenger and Phase Plant..Neither of which are part of my essential tools.
None of NI, u-he, Synapse Audio, Spectrasonics, Tal, Softube, UAD, Korg, Gforce, Parawave, Reveal Sound, Sonic-Academy etc etc etc spike.
rsp

[Hanz Meyzer]

Interresting find actually Hanz.

You are right indeed. I have small spikes appearing and I can hear subtle clicks at 10 instances of the arp 1 (with 48khz/256) and at 8 instances when buffer is 64...

Doesn't seems normal...

Tried a complex Arpeggio with Falcon. 29 components (wavetables, reverbs, filters) in Falcon. Tried with 30 instances. The CPU doesn't break a sweat (still with 64 as buffer).

So finally I see it. You are 100% right, there is something fishy.

Yes exactly, and this is esp. a problem in combination with other plugins in your track chain. Since the daw usually processes the whole track on one core, the limit is your single core power. Using avenger in your song quickly will mess up the available cpu headroom. It's pretty sad, since Avenger otherwise is a very good plugin, but is not a workhorse synth at all, due this nasty limitation.

Really this was mentioned by a lot also well known producers. Maybe Avenger still is worth the money, as inspiration or sample source, or 1-2 instance addition. Still I find it kind of ridiculous how the Avenger crew is ignoring this problem since 2016.

chipi you are spreading fake news.

Rene could simply ask for help to fix this problem, here at kvr in the developer section. Lot of very talented and experienced C++ coders here.

[Chipi]

Interresting find actually Hanz.

You are right indeed. I have small spikes appearing and I can hear subtle clicks at 10 instances of the arp 1 (with 48khz/256) and at 8 instances when buffer is 64...

Doesn't seems normal...

Tried a complex Arpeggio with Falcon. 29 components (wavetables, reverbs, filters) in Falcon. Tried with 30 instances. The CPU doesn't break a sweat (still with 64 as buffer).

So finally I see it. You are 100% right, there is something fishy.

Yes exactly, and this is esp. a problem in combination with other plugins in your track chain. Since the daw usually processes the whole track on one core, the limit is your single core power. Using avenger in your song quickly will mess up the available cpu headroom. It's pretty sad, since Avenger otherwise is a very good plugin, but is not a workhorse synth at all, due this nasty limitation.

Really this was mentioned by a lot also well known producers. Maybe Avenger still is worth the money, as inspiration or sample source, or 1-2 instance addition. Still I find it kind of ridiculous how the Avenger crew is ignoring this problem since 2016.

chipi you are spreading fake news.

Rene could simply ask for help to fix this problem, here at kvr in the developer section. Lot of very talented and experienced C++ coders here.

Rene don't follow your directives dude, buy yourself a working computer and stop crying.

[Jac459]

Rene don't follow your directives dude, buy yourself a working computer and stop crying.

Chipi, it seems you spend a lot of time talking... You should spend a bit of time listening.

1 - you spend time to reexplain what is a buffer. (That's trivial knowledge dude).
BUT
If you read us you would know that we were in 256 normally. 64 was just to choke the computer faster in our tests.
If your logic is to say avenger should not support 64, it is a broken logic, all DAW propose 64 as an option and it is supported by all vsts... because as it has been explained to you already, there are some cases when producers need very low latency.

2 - you spend time explaining to us how you have a big shiny computer. You seems very proud.
BUT
We are explaining to you that all other plugins are running well without spikes. Therefor the solution should not be to go to quantum computing but fix a bug in cpu usage of Avenger.
Do you know that some people are on budget and can't afford a big shiny computer like yours? If all vst were having issues, I would understand your point. But here again you have a broken logic. Falcon with more complex sounds doesn't have any issue of spike, neither RRP which is much more complex. Problem is in Avenger...

So what is it? Are you too excited to properly read the others and you feel the need to answer immediately not understanding the things you are reacting about?

Or are you just here to brag about your " big shiny computer"? It is OK, open a new thread, send us pictures, we will congratulate you.

In the meantime, stop polluting a discussion which can be valuable for the Plugin developer by narrowing down a real issue, observed factually by different persons.

[Chipi]

Rene don't follow your directives dude, buy yourself a working computer and stop crying.

Chipi, it seems you spend a lot of time talking... You should spend a bit of time listening.

1 - you spend time to reexplain what is a buffer. (That's trivial knowledge dude).
BUT
If you read us you would know that we were in 256 normally. 64 was just to choke the computer faster in our tests.
If your logic is to say avenger should not support 64, it is a broken logic, all DAW propose 64 as an option and it is supported by all vsts... because as it has been explained to you already, there are some cases when producers need very low latency.

2 - you spend time explaining to us how you have a big shiny computer. You seems very proud.
BUT
We are explaining to you that all other plugins are running well without spikes. Therefor the solution should not be to go to quantum computing but fix a bug in cpu usage of Avenger.
Do you know that some people are on budget and can't afford a big shiny computer like yours? If all vst were having issues, I would understand your point. But here again you have a broken logic. Falcon with more complex sounds doesn't have any issue of spike, neither RRP which is much more complex. Problem is in Avenger...

So what is it? Are you too excited to properly read the others and you feel the need to answer immediately not understanding the things you are reacting about?

Or are you just here to brag about your " big shiny computer"? It is OK, open a new thread, send us pictures, we will congratulate you.

In the meantime, stop polluting a discussion which can be valuable for the Plugin developer by narrowing down a real issue, observed factually by different persons.

[Chipi]

Rene don't follow your directives dude, buy yourself a working computer and stop crying.

Chipi, it seems you spend a lot of time talking... You should spend a bit of time listening.

1 - you spend time to reexplain what is a buffer. (That's trivial knowledge dude).
BUT
If you read us you would know that we were in 256 normally. 64 was just to choke the computer faster in our tests.
If your logic is to say avenger should not support 64, it is a broken logic, all DAW propose 64 as an option and it is supported by all vsts... because as it has been explained to you already, there are some cases when producers need very low latency.

2 - you spend time explaining to us how you have a big shiny computer. You seems very proud.
BUT
We are explaining to you that all other plugins are running well without spikes. Therefor the solution should not be to go to quantum computing but fix a bug in cpu usage of Avenger.
Do you know that some people are on budget and can't afford a big shiny computer like yours? If all vst were having issues, I would understand your point. But here again you have a broken logic. Falcon with more complex sounds doesn't have any issue of spike, neither RRP which is much more complex. Problem is in Avenger...

So what is it? Are you too excited to properly read the others and you feel the need to answer immediately not understanding the things you are reacting about?

Or are you just here to brag about your " big shiny computer"? It is OK, open a new thread, send us pictures, we will congratulate you.

In the meantime, stop polluting a discussion which can be valuable for the Plugin developer by narrowing down a real issue, observed factually by different persons.

Keep crying and spinning in circles Jac459 , there are no more than 10 users here that have Spikes problems, there are thousands and thousands of Avenger users that don't have any problem, what part don't you understand man?, stop crying and start making music instead of imposing your ideas that are false, upload the buffer to 256 and enjoy Avenger, if not sell it and buy something else and if you don't like to listen to those who want to teach you how a buffer works so you learn, change Forum. Crybaby.

[revvy]

Says the user struggling with quoting others.