Music theory questions

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Darren,

I write pop-related material and am knowledgeable about theory from a writing poing of view and used to teach it privately. This is what you need to know and hopefully it will clear things up. Please don't take this against what others have said or suggested, but this is the meat and bones of it.

First, however, don't pay any attention to any of the stuff mentioned about jazz ANYthing here or anywhere. It has its own rules and they will only confuse you and aren't even relevant. Besides...jazz sucks. "Stone Cold" said so.

Seriously...here's the best answers that I told my students when I was teaching...
darrenn wrote:Hi
I have been trying to get to grips with some music theory and have some things that I need to get clear in my head.
Below are some statements and some questions from my understanding so far - I would appreciate anyone taking the time to make sure I'm on the right track.

Songs are written in a specific key - be it major or minor.

1. Only chords from the chosen scale should be used in composition of a progression.
2. Any chord progression should start from the I chord (i.e. C minor if the scale is C minor).
3. Melodies and basslines should also only use notes from the chosen scale.
4. Notes or chords that are outside of the chosen scale should never be used.
5. The relationship between one chord and the next is used to create tension or release - it is this tension and release that gives a song it's emotion or energy.

Lets say for arguments sake I am writing a song in C major.
I create a riff or bassline (eg C C C E E E G E) and play this over the first chord in my progression (i.e. C Major) - when I come to the second chord in the progression D minor I transpose the riff to start on D the next note keeping the intervals the same is G# which clearly is not part of the C major scale. Do I use G# regardless and break the rules above or do I adapt my riff to play over each chord?

The other topic that is confusing me is when would I use modes or pentatonic scales. Am I right in thinking that you would only use a particular mode if it used the same notes as the songs key i.e. you could write a melody in A minor to fit in a song played in C major.
Are modes that relevant to modern music?

I mostly produce dance or pop music but most theory books are based on classical music or jazz - is there anything different about composing modern music or is the theory all the same.

Thanks ever so

Darren
Pop songs RARELY if EVER (meaning NEVER change from major to minor key, say from A MAJOR to A minor...HOWEVER, you may have a verse part in C MAJOR (for example) that goes to a bridge part in A minor (which is called the "relative" minor). Each MAJOR KEY has a RELATIVE MINOR which is basically the same scale but starting on the 6th note up. (C D E F G A = 6 notes).

Careful with the word "should", because sometimes doing things like using the Minor Second in the scale degree (Bb in an Am scale, for instance) can be rather cool-sounding.

1. Chords from the chosen scale are normally used for pop/rock/dance/etc, I'd say around 98% of the time except for an exception for "coolness" like a minor second or flatted fifth - play with those on your own.

Note - learn scale degrees for the Major and Minor. Like the 1-4-5 in Major Keys are always Major, but minor for minor, etc.

2. The progression does NOT have to start on 1. Starting sometimes on the 4 or 5 works well also. 1 is just the "strongest" degree to start on. 7th is probably the "weakest". 5 and 4 are second and third strongest, and 3 and 6 generally lead to other things around them.

3. See # 1. Same answer.

4. Same answer as #1. Pop/rock/dance tends to stay in the scale because it sounds better. NOTE THIS EXCEPTION - YOU WILL *RARELY* AND I MEAN *FRIGGIN RALRELY* EVER modify this with a minor 6th if you're using a major scale and v-v. It simply sounds like poop. The flatted second and flatted fifth generally work. Sometimes in the major scale you'll use the minor 7th - this can sound cool.

(Remember- that's the only "reason" to do anything - that it sounds cool.)

5. Forget tension/release concepts in pop/rock/dance. It's more important to take a song you like and analyze it's chord progression and what the melody line is doing that to get academic. For classical/composing/etc it's important, but doing the above is the thing that'll make your writing really take off.

For your last example - you've come to the point where everyone does in their theory thinking. TO put it bluntly, in pop/rock/dance/etc, you do NOT USE THE NOTES OF THE SPECIFIC CHORD YOU ARE USING. You simply use the notes of the main scale/key that the song is based on. This itself provides the tension/release that you described. The chords that you use fit in the overall picture of the main key. The lead/melody line does this also in it's own way. It's more important to use the scale degree of 1-3-5 in the key itself than the specific chord. Don't transpose your riffs because you think that the underlying chord has it's own specific notes.

Okay - modes. Remember, this whole post is on reality and not "shoulds". NO NO NO NO NO. Don't even worry or think about modes.

The best way to think about modes is this -

Take a major scale, say "C". C + 7 notes is the major scale. Start on 6 that's the minor scale (or "mode"). Start on any other note and it's a different "mode" (but the notes have to be from C Major).

This is pretty useless from a "sounds good" point of view in pop/rock/dance/etc. The things to do to "alter" sounds are what I mentioned above - flat the 2nd, 5th, sometimes the major 7th in a major scale, and 99.99% of every pop/rock/dance song will NOT go outside of these "rules" - which are more just like guidelines, anyway.

BOTTOM LINE - ANALYZE THE SONGS YOU LIKE. IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, NOTHING THAT YOU INTELLECTUALLY "KNOW" WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Take care - hope this helps.

- Paul

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TechNoiZ wrote:Modes are a piece of piss .... but from the number of questions regularly aked on this site about keys - and the actual number and range of 'answers' put forward, belies the fact that no-one has yet given a clear and simple answer ....

Why is this ...... is it because nobody on here understands simple music theory? I don't think so.
Is it because when one person gives a perfectly good and straightforward answer using one set of vocabulary - usually relating to 'tonality' ie chord structures, diatonic progressions etc. - somebody else jumps in and clouds the issue with talk about modes? Mmmmmmmmm. I wonder .....

Read your history books - jazz (a form of twentieth century music which primarily describes the scalic devations it uses from the given key as modal) is a form of EXTENDED tonality - and all I'm trying to point out is that you will find it difficult to explain the extension without explaining the basic unit.
Do you mean a concise definition of why a group of seven notes can be a key, a scale or a mode; and what the differences are?
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FUKING HELL - FINALLY :

well done Paul - no mixed message there ....... MAKE THIS A STICKY

BUT how long until someone comes along and says .......

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nuffink wrote:
TechNoiZ wrote:Modes are a piece of piss .... but from the number of questions regularly aked on this site about keys - and the actual number and range of 'answers' put forward, belies the fact that no-one has yet given a clear and simple answer ....

Why is this ...... is it because nobody on here understands simple music theory? I don't think so.
Is it because when one person gives a perfectly good and straightforward answer using one set of vocabulary - usually relating to 'tonality' ie chord structures, diatonic progressions etc. - somebody else jumps in and clouds the issue with talk about modes? Mmmmmmmmm. I wonder .....

Read your history books - jazz (a form of twentieth century music which primarily describes the scalic devations it uses from the given key as modal) is a form of EXTENDED tonality - and all I'm trying to point out is that you will find it difficult to explain the extension without explaining the basic unit.
Do you mean a concise definition of why a group of seven notes can be a key, a scale or a mode; and what the differences are?
Hey ... why stop at seven; why not go the whole hog. Go read Allen Forte's book on Set Theoretical Analysis and come back and explain the dodecaphonic compositions of the early 20th Century ...

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It's simply a question of "applied" theory vs, um, "theoretical" theory, I guess you would say.

Theory is something that I happen to love and studied for many years...BUT the best definition for theory I've ever heard is this -

THEORY IS JUST KNOWING WHAT TO "CALL" WHAT "SOUNDS GOOD".

That's pretty well off, I think. Heck, Yanni even uses his own notation method as do I now. More like writing numbers on paper instead of notes, etc. Not a big thing, but once you start analyzing THE THINGS THAT YOU SPECIFICALLY LIKE you will start to REALLY not only UNDERSTAND what theory is REALLY about, but more importantly two things -

1) You will start to be able to "repeat" the THINGS THAT YOU LIKE in the songs that you like in different contexts you create...

AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON TO LEARN "APPLIED" THEORY (analyzing songs that you like) IS THAT...

*** YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TRANSLATE THE "COOL" THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON IN YOUR HEAD OUT INTO "REAL" MUSIC MUCH, MUCH FASTER AND MUCH, MUCH EASIER ***

I get a song or part "in my head" now and I'll just grab a paper and write, for example, "Bass line - 1 4 5 4 (4x) - Lead line (numbers, etc)" or "vocal line with third harmony above (and the scale numbers for those, etc)"

And just so those of you who don't know, a "third" harmony is a second singer (or other instrument) playing the same melody as the "first" instrument it's enhancing 2 notes higher IN THE SAME SCALE. Most songs that have harmonies for the chorus are third and sometimes fifth harmonies, and a lot of rock guitar solos, especially in the 80's had third harmony lead lines all over the place, and the vocals tended to do this, too.

Most of the big QUEEN harmonies (Bohemian Rhapsody, etc.) are all 3rd with a 5th supporting.

NOTE THAT YOU WILL GENERALLY NEVER USE A 5TH HARMONY WITHOUT A 3RD. It can sound awful and is generally used for effect only, and if so it's not a "diatonic" (in the scale) 5th, but a "parallel" 5th (avoided like the plague in classical) harmony.

Talk to you all later!

- Paul

(Sorry for spelling errors - trying to type as fast as I am thinking without losing the central teachings.)

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Maybe this is a dumb question, but when you go into a different mode like say... phrygian, do you use the root note of the mode the same way for chords? For example, in phrygian again, does the III chord of dorian become the I chord of phrygian?

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Hahahahahahahaha .......

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TechNoiZ wrote:I am utterly incapable of contributing anything useful to this thread. Instead, I will make an insipid attempt at being smug.
Fixed

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On the contrary .... I think my contribution was very useful .....

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And indeed correct ......

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Whereas yours.... Mister Nihilist ... was .... need I say it?

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Oooops

Quadruple post.

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OK....

Start by knowing that most Theory Books have nothing to do with Real World application.

You do need to know what the rules are;

- to break them
- to understand the structure of music

Chords/Scales are just the alphabet and words of music

The same 12 major scales are used in all Western music.

The same basic chords are used in all types of music. Basic Chords are;

- Major and Minor Triads
- Major, Dominant, Minor 7ths

Any other chords used are just alterations or additions to these basic chords. Don't worry about these to get started.

All music is comprised of 3 basic elements;

- rhythm
- harmony (chords)
- melody (scales)

Get an understanding of major scales. Get an understanding of the 60 basic chords (12 notes x 5 chord types). Just this bit of Theory can build a vast majority of music.

THEN, you can look at the 7 chords built on major scales. It's the same pattern for all scales. Learn it once and plug it in to all.

Knowledge work should always be done away from your instrument. Learn it, then apply it.

Chords move in:

- 5ths
- 3rds
- 2nds

That's it! Anything else (4ths, 6ths, 7ths) are just an inversion of one of these.

Forget modes! They confuse people, they were cool in the 1400's but no more. All a mode does is get on and off of a scale at different places. It's like a toll road, you can get on and off at different exits but you're always on the same road.

Build progressions in different keys until you get bored or hit a wrong chord. Then, experiment with taking your progressions and changing the chord quality of one chord.

Take Dmi7 G7 Cmaj
and make it D7 G7 Cmaj
or Dmi7 Gmi7 Cmi7

Changing the chord quality is the simplest form of substitution.

Find a circle of 5ths.

Moving to keys close to your original key on the Circle will be a smooth transition. Moving to keys on the other side of the circle will be a stronger change in color.

Experiment!

Take chords from songs you like and build new melodies

Take melodies you like and build new chords

Put a bunch of chord name on pieces of paper. Put them in a bag, hat anything.

Pull out 4-8 chords and build a song from those. Then, re-arrange them in a different order.

Look at chord structures in music you like. Analyze how it was built. Take chords from types of music you aren't familiar with (Bossa, Jazz, Classical, Country, whatever) and see how that is built.

Music is a language, but the rules are more open to alteration and change than most spoken language.

Have fun!

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I understand that but ...
the_nihilist wrote:Maybe this is a dumb question, but when you go into a different mode like say... phrygian, do you use the root note of the mode the same way for chords? For example, in phrygian again, does the III chord of dorian become the I chord of phrygian?
:hihi:

[sadly this may become my standard reply to any theoretical question for the next 7 years].

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The last group to really enjoy Phrygian was monks in the middle ages. They just built single line melodies (sometimes 2 parts). So, no chords.

Technically, Phrygian is built on the 3rd step. So, it's just playing from E to E on a C major scale. Modes should never be thought of as a theoretical answer. Phrygian mode just shows that a chord built on the 3rd step of C is E minor.

Even modern compositions based on Phrygian just tend to be long rambly things (like my recent posts) on the Minor Chord they are centered on. So it's like a non-stop Allman Bros., Phish, Widespread, Tarnce (for you UKrs) on a minor chord.
Last edited by mikemusicked on Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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