Sampling drums, when to make the cut

[sonicfire]

I'm working on a drum sampling project right now & I have a general question for the drum sampling gurus out there.
Upon looking at some commercial (and non commercial) samples of drums I notice that many people seem to leave a ridiculous amount of dead space after every sample.
Using my lil zoom too in Audition I then realized that this wasn't actually dead air, but very very quiet decay from the drums (<-96dB).

This strikes me as being a bit ridiculous, if more than 2/3rds of a sample (or even a third) is below this level, what is the actual point? Instead of a 100k wav, you have a 300k wave of mostly inaudible white noise? Instead of a 30 meg library, you have a 90 meg library where 60 meg is nearly inaudible except at extremely high volumes! Not to mention that you probably wont even hear this in a mix.

So am I crazy for thinking this way?

take a moment , and think about that yourself
simple answer: "we have a 200 MB soundset!" (instead of propably 100 or less)...

[steveholt]

To be honest, the real problem is with cymbals, which can ring for over a minute. Personally, on our drum library, we faded before that, and also set the polyphony of the cymbal groups to about 16, to stop cpu's going crazy. Applying temperance with the sampler this way is less destructive, and gives the user the choice.

So what does happen to the "old" sound of a cymbal when you hit it again? Presumably it is somewhere between continuing and cut off?

Steve

[birrbits]

Don't get me started

So am I crazy for thinking this way?

Not at all.

Chase and Soniccouture's advice is well given.

Steve

Alright, I feel less anal now

[birrbits]

So what does happen to the "old" sound of a cymbal when you hit it again? Presumably it is somewhere between continuing and cut off?

Steve

Depends on the sampler, but it most cases the "old" sound stops at this point.

[steveholt]

So what does happen to the "old" sound of a cymbal when you hit it again? Presumably it is somewhere between continuing and cut off?

Steve

Depends on the sampler, but it most cases the "old" sound stops at this point.

I meant in real life. It must continue to some extent because you can build up the sound. But I guess the next hit must dampen it a bit?

Steve

[hollowsun]

I meant in real life. It must continue to some extent because you can build up the sound. But I guess the next hit must dampen it a bit.

I think it depends where you hit it.

Smash the cymbal on the edge and then smash it again and the orginal cymbal will be cut/dampened but not abruptly as the new smash sounds.

However, tap the cymbal on the bell (or elsewhere) and the resonances will build especially with ride and 'sizzle' (rivet) cymbals and the original sound will continue to ring.

But smash the cymbal and then 'riding' it will keep the smash cymbal going and building but with the 'smash' element gradually dying (IYSWIM).

A lot of drummers I've worked with have two identical (or similar) crash cymbals so that they can achieve 'polyphonic' smashes without one smash 'cutting' the other.

[steveholt]

Sounds almost impossible to emulate. Thanks for the explanation.

Steve

[hollowsun]

Sounds almost impossible to emulate. Thanks for the explanation.

Indeed - samplers fall short in this area. They can play polyphonically (where the original sample carries on as the new one plays) or you can have the original sample cut when a new sample is triggered. The first option is the most 'realistic' (although the second is required for things like open/closed hi-hats, open/closed triangles, etc.).

In practice (and with the usual caveat of "in most circumstances in most applications when the kit is in a mix with other instruments") it is unlikely that most people will hear these subtle distinctions.


Steve