multisampling hardware synths question

[Jeremy_NSL]

well many hardware synths have alot of limitations:

low polyphony
poor filters
bad fx
poor midi timing
no total recall of song data
too few audio-outs

The usual... So sampling can help alot in some cases.

[origami]

in my case it's simple. I use FL and I love using FL, but it doesn't support sysex, so I have to save every simple sound I make with my Virus and midi timing is not always correct or so is my impression ; it's a bit uncomfortable. I'd like to build a good sample library for my virus.

[origami]

well there's another reason, very important one for me. In my personal way of composing, I give a lot of importance on effects; never work on raw tracks but always the process of the song evolves with those effects (delays, distortions, filters, etc). So since I have only one audio in, all my Virus tracks will go through the same channel mixer, ando so I cannot apply different effects on each other. That's why I'm also interested in sampling.

[OMU]

I had a Virus too.
Anyway it was stolen and after some time I felt I need its sounds somehow.
A friend of mine borrowed me his Virus and I sampled a selection of arpegiated patches which resulted in about 4 GB (a dvd).
In my oppinion having the real thing is much more fun and everything but, anyway.
I could do a fine Virus library but considering some sounds cannot be decently reproduced unless if they are sampled note by note (and in the case of arpegiated patches even at two or three tempos) it would have a huge size (at least 5 dvds). And for the lead sounds a sampler which has a mono/legato function is needed (exs24 and MachFive come in mind, recently, Kontakt2 has been blessed with this function too but it needs to be perfected as it is still far from competeing with the other two mentioned).
Such a collection should be organized as follows:
dvd1: Arpegiated
dvd2: Arpegiated (part two)
dvd3: Basses and Leads
dvd4: Pads
dvd5: Keys and Percussion

I would do this in exchange for a Virus but probably you won't give it away for this.
So
Happy Hollydays!

[tee boy]

Its the looping that can be particularly time consuming. Recording and editing is a breeze. I reckon that looping in Infinity or Seamless Looper is pretty painless (especially now that Seamless with adjust gain to compensate for crossfade attenuation!), so no need to worry about the all in one solutions.

Then again, multisampling is a time consuming exercise at the best of times. I can see the appeal of Sample Robot and Samplit. Definately worth trying out the demos (if you can get them to work, I couldnt!).

[hollowsun]

Sampling at C and G of every octave you want to cover is often quite enough otherwise every minor third (C, D#, F# and A) of every octave. Sample for around 5 seconds each (or longer if you prefer.... much longer if you want to avoid the tiresome business of looping but watch the bloat!!!).

When mapping the samples out, 'positional crossfade' can help smooth the transition between the 'keygroups' (or zones or whatever your sampler calls them) - simply overlap and create a crossfade (different samplers do it differently; some s/w samplers don't allow it at all ... or fall over if it's used)

Infinity (Mac OS9 only) or Seamless Looper (Windows only) will help with looping but if my long experience with Infinity is anything to go by, 'auto-loopers' can make a right hash of analogue synth sounds (including a VA synth like Virus) so you're gonna have to roll your sleeves up and do that manually perhaps - it can be done however (though I will say that hardware samplers tend to have tools better suited for looping than software apps).

What you don't need is a sample on every note at different velocities in stereo 24-bit/96kHz. Sample the synth 'wide open' and re-construct the filter, envs, LFOs, etc., in your sampler (details of which you've not included BTW). The Virus is 16/44.1 anyway so the higher sampling resolution would be wasted (as would your sampler's memory, CPU processing and disk space!).

I can fully understand why you'd want to sample your Virus to incorporate those sounds in your DAW as there are many benefits to be had. That said, you won't have the same degree of 'tweakage' and it will be a fair chunk of work.

Good luck!


Steve

[origami]

thaks a lot for your answers; i see it's work, I'll have to meditate it, uhm...
thx

[OMU]

re-construct the filter, envs, LFOs, etc., in your sampler

Steve

Virus' filters, evelopes
In vsampler or whatever
you are joking, this is clear

[OMU]

What you don't need is a sample on every note at different velocities in stereo 24-bit/96kHz.


Steve

please...

at 96 k, probably not, but 24 bits (and stereo, we're talking about a virus not a mini, and its effects can be ruined if you sample in mono) and sometimes even multi velocities are things that can add a lot of life to a sampler patch preventing it from sounding "sampler like", if you know what I mean.
Gone are the days of akai (I know this, mine lies somwhere completely unused for about three years)

[OMU]

And, by the way, I think Chainer has a pretty good "multisampling function" (and I'm talking about the demo version, of course ).

[tee boy]

I sample ever white key at 44/16. About 10 seconds per note, but that comes down to 3 - 5 after looping and editing. In my experience, its better to sample more than less!


Omu,

I dont know this as a fact, but I would wager the Virus's DA convertors run in 16bit. So I wouldnt have any issue sampling them as such. But I get your point - we have bug enough hard drives now not need such compromises.

Filter / env wise, you wont recreate this in a sampler. But Steve (Hollowsun) is quite correct about the sampling proceedure. I mean, it is not possible to reproduce filter modulations using samples (unless you take about 1'000'000'000 samples!). That is the compromise you will have to make if you want to run your Virus in a soft sampler, no way around it that I can see.

Personally, I reset turn off FX, and reset the filter and amp envs. This isnt always the case, but 99.9% of the time. This way you can use the sample as the base waveform, and recreate the FX and filter modulations using the sampler or other processors. You could even send the signal back into the Virus and trigger the env via midi (although midi timing would likely let you down).

[tee boy]

Steve,

Any chance you could grace us with some of your manual looping techniques? Iv been having some real trouble looping some JP8080 string patches, and I could do with brushing up on the art of multisample looping!

[hollowsun]

re-construct the filter, envs, LFOs, etc., in your sampler

Steve

Virus' filters, evelopes
In vsampler or whatever
you are joking, this is clear

You are using the wrong sampler - this is clear

[hollowsun]

Steve,

Any chance you could grace us with some of your manual looping techniques? Iv been having some real trouble looping some JP8080 string patches, and I could do with brushing up on the art of multisample looping!

Look for null points in the sample where the oscillators almost cancel out and loop to those. Maybe apply a crossfade to smooth the loop out (varies depending on the nature of the sound).

Or look for cycles in any PWM that might be going on. Depends on the circumstances.

Do-able though as I think I have proved.... just get anything from http://www.hollowsun.com/downloads for evidence.

Steve

[tee boy]

Cheers Steve. I must admit, this is an aspect of sampling that I hate! I always end up finding the best loop I can with Seamless, then adding a little crossfade. But Im sure there are more effective (if less efficient) methods of performing this task.