KVR Audio

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:11 pm

Once again, folks, remember that copyright refers to the recording of a performance. And performance in that context has a specific definition. And its not the fact that its a sound; its the fact that it is a person playing that sound. Hence there's nothing in copyright law to prevent you directly sampling a Bosendorfer, or a Minimoog, or anything else that generates its own sounds.

However if you are sampling something which produces its sounds by means of anything which is actually a recording, from a single waveform to a multisampled orchestra, then copyright applies because you are sampling what the law considers to be a performance.

Roland dont need to license the sound of a Bosendorfer if they record it themselves.

Dominus · Post by **Dominus** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:14 pm

bleebsen wrote:Dominus: I think the problem in YOUR case is that you violated E-MUs exclusive right to call something "E-MU". That's a trademark violation not copyright infringement IMHO.

It's possible, I just remember a ton of threatening E-Mails and going back and forth and finally giving them the win and telling them that I wouldn't sell ANY CDs period. This was 4 or 5 years ago, so I've kept my nose clean, so to speak.

They were some great sounds though, I might re-release them under a new name. Most of those synths were easy (for me) to program, the only one I really didn't get much satisfaction from was the Nord Lead 2.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:14 pm

Oh, and by the way, the license of using copyrighted material is what applies, so you are typically paying for the right to use samples in your own musical performances as long as it is not for the sole purpose of redistributing them in a derived form.

Dominus · Post by **Dominus** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:16 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:Once again, folks, remember that copyright refers to the recording of a performance. And performance in that context has a specific definition. And its not the fact that its a sound; its the fact that it is a person playing that sound.
However if you are sampling something which produces its sounds by means of anything which is actually a recording, from a single waveform to a multisampled orchestra, then copyright applies because you are sampling what the law considers to be a performance.

According to Eric Persing, synth patches are considered a performance in most countries.

soniccouture · Post by **soniccouture** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:21 pm

John Vulich wrote:Anyway, try using your brains for once guys. I can see why companies like Roland, KORG and Yamaha wouldn't want to open up this can of worms. I wonder how many Piano, Guitar, Drums, String, Brass and Vintage Synth Raw Waveforms sounds are sampled onto their ROMs that are taken from instruments that they have not manufactured or licensed.

Of course it's a "grey area". As far as I'm concerned they are just as guilty as any one else regarding potential copyright infringments.

Absolutely. I can confirm with certainty that the Motif series contains hundreds of samples from Korg and Roland products, because i made some of them on their instruction.

Its all fair game, as long as you don't shout about it.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:41 pm

"Its all fair game, as long as you don't shout about it."

I think that is probably the most sensible statement made over the entire thread!

SonicCouture,

Did you ever sample anything created on a Roland or Korg ROM synth for your work on the Motif series? And please, if the answe is yes, just whisper

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:48 am

Now my question is this. If I PERFORM those sounds MY way onto a CD, does that make the new samples not original any more? Likely not, since I am only playing something somebody else already made in it's exact form. But what if I add a filter, or some delays or verb. Does that now become a new performance?

So many grey areas, I think nobody will be in trouble if they just keep their mouth shut. But then again, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said already in this thread, so never mind.

Koolkeys

Ildon · Post by **Ildon** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:56 am

soniccouture wrote:
John Vulich wrote:Anyway, try using your brains for once guys. I can see why companies like Roland, KORG and Yamaha wouldn't want to open up this can of worms. I wonder how many Piano, Guitar, Drums, String, Brass and Vintage Synth Raw Waveforms sounds are sampled onto their ROMs that are taken from instruments that they have not manufactured or licensed.

Of course it's a "grey area". As far as I'm concerned they are just as guilty as any one else regarding potential copyright infringments.
Absolutely. I can confirm with certainty that the Motif series contains hundreds of samples from Korg and Roland products, because i made some of them on their instruction.

Its all fair game, as long as you don't shout about it.

I knew it! Damn them.

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:06 am

I sample like a bitch

soniccouture · Post by **soniccouture** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:58 am

tee boy wrote:"Its all fair game, as long as you don't shout about it."

I think that is probably the most sensible statement made over the entire thread!

SonicCouture,

Did you ever sample anything created on a Roland or Korg ROM synth for your work on the Motif series? And please, if the answe is yes, just whisper

heh, no, not really ROM stuff, it's true, cos yamaha make their own, of course - but certain wave sequencing synths and famous analogues and big 80's digital synths -yes, lots of samples.

but so what? that's the point. who gives?

none of this amounts to a hill of beans, does it, really? a few noises in some keyboards?

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:50 am

Absolutely. But this is KVR, and we get very anal about such purile things

Personally, Iv always been of the 'sample what you like, but be creative' school of thought. But that has not always made me a propular man around these parts. Iv had people comparing this with car theft and all sorts!

Life I said earlier, I tend to think of ROM synths to be about on par with the old vinyl breaks in terms of sampling. Theoretically they are both illegal to source from, but who the hell is going to know if I run a sampled snare though a million plugins?

This can go to far though. Iv recently caught out some BIG soundware devs sampling seriously illecit stuff. And it gave me quite a shock to say the least. The things people get away with in this industry is amazing.

Let me ask you another question - did you have any involvement in the production of the ROM sets? Or was it your job more to use this material to make patches for the specific synths?

Btw, how the hell did you get that job?! Go to a decent a uni or something?

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:08 am

I don't see anything wrong with sampling products that are out of production and no longer available (especially if the company no longer exists like Sequential Circuits, for example) but sampling current products and passing them off for $50 or whatever (and bragging about it) is unscrupulous and no different to, say, sampling Garritan's orchestral library (or whatever) and selling that.

Blatantly sampling and selling (or giving away) a manufacturer's current sample-based product's sounds without permission is tantamount to piracy in my view.

Steve

SampleStream · Post by **SampleStream** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:13 am

I think samplering other guys work without permission from the original artists is at the very least – 'lazy' and just a tad 'disrespectful' and that pretty much sums up the mindset behind guys that 'steal' others 'original' recorded sounds, without which they would have 'nothing'.

I don’t think these guys realise how much time it takes to get original sounds, to record them, the costs of the equipment involved (microphones, recorders, instruments), the costs of the time involved (labour, human time on this planet) to set-up – record over and over, chop and edit the waves, lable and sort them – then to see other guys grab the waves and sell them without any consideration for the original source, the guys that recorded it.

Peter

quietmusician · Post by **quietmusician** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:27 am

What about the sample sets that come from wusikstation ?

Have they been cleared ?

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:32 am

But again, this is where it comes down the individual case. I have loads of respect for the guys who can make amazing beats using nothing but tiny samples from old vinyl records. This is creative and totally alright imo.

But you get others who just steal entire breaks and sell them without clearance on cheap sample CD's. This is, as you say Peter, lazy and pretty poor form.

But then again, some people are happy to just sample a loops from an old tune, layer on a few new beats and call it their work. Others arent satisfied unless they have personally hand sculpted every last nuance of the music.

I sit on the fence in many respects, as you cant make general statments ie, this is cool, this is not. Just do what you feel is ok, I will do what I feel is ok, and we'll get along just fine (that is ofcourse unless you nick any of my loops

)

is that allowed!?