is masterfader down a solution to clipping in digital domain

[asomers]

Is masterfader down a solution to clipping in digital domain?

It depends on what's going on in the other channels. Plug-ins can clip internally even when the output signal is not too hot. You have gain controls all over the place and you need to keep track of all of them, so quite simply the answer is: No.

-Adam

[krank]

The answer has something to do with gain structure, correct?

If your project/set is very progressed and has complicated routing, it may be a bitch to set all the individual faders right again, since return tracks should not be decreased with the same db as track channels. In that case, I say you could turn down the master level - though I suggest you put a Utility on it instead and tweak that rather than the fader.

I use Live as well, by the way. I never touch the master fader except for emergencies. Put something like Inspector on it, it will monitor peaking more strictly than watching the channel go in the red.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

I tend to agree with the fact that if i see red on a clip indicator on a plugin, that means its clipping.

with that said, if i see red on a mixer strip, i believe it means the same thing.

If i see it on a bus or aux strip, you guessed it!

So, apparently Clipping CAN happen on different levels, no?

So I tend to think its good to take it down a notch on the track level.

by the way, is it REALLY impossible to clip in 32 bit? I doubt its impossible. Just cause it has alot more resolution doesnt mean the headroom is infinite.. but then again i may be misinformed.

i would love to be confident on this subject. Hopefully someone can learn me one

[Jason Brian Merrill]

then again you can just throw a brickwall limiter on it

[bduffy]

Well I'll tell you what I do: becuase, like you say, you run the risk of changing your send levels to compressors (like with complex drum comrpession schemes), so if I know I have to lower everything, but I'm too far along in mixing and I want to keep it the same, I send everything to Group Channels and lower the Groups. Voila, problem solved, master fader = zero.

You just have to remember to tell yourself that your mix actually doesn't sound dull or worse; it's just quiter.

JBM: I think it's always safe to take it down a notch. Really, after a mastering guy told me not to worry about volume, I stopped worrying about. We don't have to fret over noise and truncated bits like we used to.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

JBM: I think it's always safe to take it down a notch. Really, after a mastering guy told me not to worry about volume, I stopped worrying about. We don't have to fret over noise and truncated bits like we used to.

thats very good to hear!!!!

[bduffy]

JBM: I think it's always safe to take it down a notch. Really, after a mastering guy told me not to worry about volume, I stopped worrying about. We don't have to fret over noise and truncated bits like we used to.

thats very good to hear!!!!

Yeah, this was coming from a veteran of some 30-odd years in the biz. One of our "quiet" DAW mixes is generally as loud or louder than they used to master for vinyl, so we're free and clear to mix a bit quiter. You'll really appreciate the extra headroom if you're like me and write and track the music first. Then you have all this glorious room for mixing vocals; You almost don't need compression! I'm using a fraction of the compression I used to put on vocals (used to crush them [said like Ali G] with RenVox). So you begin to think: I bet they do this in the "big" studios too...

[Kingston]

Not using the master fader in digital domain is idiocy squared, and if one fears loss of headroom because of that, he has probably heard some voodoohoodoo bullshit summing talk.

Put it this way, the theoretical max s/n of AD/DA converter is around -140dB. 32bits goes further, which is the math of your abominable master fader being multiplied (ie. gain). None of you have a soundcard even capable of -110dB.

Twiggling the master fader pretty much only influences audio below even the theoretical limit. Get a grip people!

Safely adjust all of those faders in any given situation. You clipped it, you adjust. No fear of the boogieman.

[bduffy]

right, there you have it. It is all pretty moot in 32-bitness.

[olepro]

Unless you have a VERY hot signal on the master there is nothing wrong at all to pull down the master fader.
That's what it's there for

[Kingston]

Unless you have a VERY hot signal on the master there is nothing wrong at all to pull down the master fader.
That's what it's there for

Even if it was 40dB clipped over it would still be ok to pull down the master fader with no harm on the audio. With big fader moves it comes down to practicality as faders usually get pretty coarse at the low end. But remember, the sound doesn't get coarse because of this. It's just the fader's *visible* scale, purely hampering the low volume tweaking range, but not the sound itself.

[wazun]

Unless you have a VERY hot signal on the master there is nothing wrong at all to pull down the master fader.
That's what it's there for

Even if it was 40dB clipped over it would still be ok to pull down the master fader with no harm on the audio. With big fader moves it comes down to practicality as faders usually get pretty coarse at the low end. But remember, the sound doesn't get coarse because of this. It's just the fader's *visible* scale, purely hampering the low volume tweaking range, but not the sound itself.

So the possibility to have 40db clipping over is because of the big headroom with 32bit resolution right?
So if I make a mixdown and render this as 32bit, it could be at -10db and there would be no audible loss?

[Kingston]

Unless you have a VERY hot signal on the master there is nothing wrong at all to pull down the master fader.
That's what it's there for

Even if it was 40dB clipped over it would still be ok to pull down the master fader with no harm on the audio. With big fader moves it comes down to practicality as faders usually get pretty coarse at the low end. But remember, the sound doesn't get coarse because of this. It's just the fader's *visible* scale, purely hampering the low volume tweaking range, but not the sound itself.

So the possibility to have 40db clipping over is because of the big headroom with 32bit resolution right?
So if I make a mixdown and render this as 32bit, it could be at -10db and there would be no audible loss?

Yes indeed. It could be there are limitations in some hosts in regard to this, but rest assured a good host will handle it perfectly.

[jens]

Not using the master fader in digital domain is idiocy squared, and if one fears loss of headroom because of that, he has probably heard some voodoohoodoo bullshit summing talk.

Put it this way, the theoretical max s/n of AD/DA converter is around -140dB. 32bits goes further, which is the math of your abominable master fader being multiplied (ie. gain). None of you have a soundcard even capable of -110dB.

Twiggling the master fader pretty much only influences audio below even the theoretical limit. Get a grip people!

Safely adjust all of those faders in any given situation. You clipped it, you adjust. No fear of the boogieman.

thanks!


If I had dared to say that the rabbyt would have been after me...

[IIRs]

Here's a test you can all do: import a normalised full scale sample, and max every gain control you can route it through until the master meters are pinned and the distortion is painfully audible.. now export a 32 bit file, and re-import it. It will look and sound horribly clipped.. now turn the gain back down by the same amount you boosted it earlier and listen carefully.