http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html
here are some tube reviews.
i'm currently using the Sovtek 12AX7 LPS in my LPB2ube and it makes a fine smooth sound
without getting any muddyness.(Starved Tube Units are producing Mud!)
i use it on all my tracks..on vst instruments too by rerecording and imo it makes a
huge difference....!
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
what HARDWARE gear do you use to tame digital sound?
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 19 Mar, 2004 from vienna
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 148 posts since 11 Sep, 2006 from in my own little orbit
i know tubes make a difference. i've been gleaning info here and there on tubes in all of my "hi-fi" magazine browsing over the years.
SOMETHING tube based was definately the 1st thing i thought of. i had considered guitar preamps, but i'd like something capable of "clean" sounds so that it could be used on EVERYTHING including acoustic instruments and and vocals. i was thinking tube compressor because that's one of the most used effects.
so alot of you are just using tube preamps then huh? anyone have any recommendations for a sub $300 unit? i was considering art & behringer etc. because most gear is $1000+ which is out of my range. heck, even pedals are going for $200 but i was looking at the one company that has a bunch of different models including marshals & vox. you've probable seen their little "half wide" chrome face units without any case. i was thinking of either those or a sansamp even though it's solid state.
as to distortion, i could get a bunch of VST sims for that eg. JCM-900 and then warm it up in an effects send.
thanks a bunch for the virtually unanimous feedback... i need to budget for a tube preamp. maybe i can find one that can do compression and overload as well as subtle warming.
SOMETHING tube based was definately the 1st thing i thought of. i had considered guitar preamps, but i'd like something capable of "clean" sounds so that it could be used on EVERYTHING including acoustic instruments and and vocals. i was thinking tube compressor because that's one of the most used effects.
so alot of you are just using tube preamps then huh? anyone have any recommendations for a sub $300 unit? i was considering art & behringer etc. because most gear is $1000+ which is out of my range. heck, even pedals are going for $200 but i was looking at the one company that has a bunch of different models including marshals & vox. you've probable seen their little "half wide" chrome face units without any case. i was thinking of either those or a sansamp even though it's solid state.
as to distortion, i could get a bunch of VST sims for that eg. JCM-900 and then warm it up in an effects send.
thanks a bunch for the virtually unanimous feedback... i need to budget for a tube preamp. maybe i can find one that can do compression and overload as well as subtle warming.
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 19 Mar, 2004 from vienna
i recommend you the above in my posts mentioned units (electro harmonix/Phonic)
because as far as i know the most of this kind of ART or Behringer Units are "low voltage designs(starved tube)" some people call it fake tube sound"
they can produce a fatter sound ,but definition and clarity sucks then very much.
read also my posts about swapping the stock tubes...the rigth tube is very important,
it can make a huge difference...this way you can make your preamp or compressor sound
according to your taste (big bottom... or linear ..much high definition etc.)
avoid the cheaper tubes that are better suited in guitar amps as overdrive-deliverers.
if you choose a 12AX7 device..the sovtek LPS gives a very linear and detailrich sound.
kind regards....
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
because as far as i know the most of this kind of ART or Behringer Units are "low voltage designs(starved tube)" some people call it fake tube sound"
they can produce a fatter sound ,but definition and clarity sucks then very much.
read also my posts about swapping the stock tubes...the rigth tube is very important,
it can make a huge difference...this way you can make your preamp or compressor sound
according to your taste (big bottom... or linear ..much high definition etc.)
avoid the cheaper tubes that are better suited in guitar amps as overdrive-deliverers.
if you choose a 12AX7 device..the sovtek LPS gives a very linear and detailrich sound.
kind regards....
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
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- KVRist
- 123 posts since 8 Dec, 2003
basically it's really simple: a big part of the "digital sound" comes from the fact that everything is done "in the box" and recorded/played back with the same soundcard/convertors. When using hardware stuff people use all kinds of different (pre)amps, output stages, convertors, etc. which makes every sound source sound somewhat different. You can emulate this by using a mix of different soundcards, convertors and pre-amps to record and playback your software sound-sources with..
Olaf
Olaf
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 19 Mar, 2004 from vienna
here are links to the phonic tube thingies..with small reviews...
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=124
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=125
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=126
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=124
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=125
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=126
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- KVRian
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
Just for the sake of coloring a too "clean" a signal, would you say one should go for the enhancer rather than the compressor, or the other way around, or would you say they are a good complement?premiumcrap wrote:here are links to the phonic tube thingies..with small reviews...
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=124
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=125
http://210.243.85.5/partner/modules/pro ... uct_id=126
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 19 Mar, 2004 from vienna
if you already own a good mic pre or a mixer with good mic/line inputs,i would decide
for the compressor,in this case you can at least limit your inputsignals for avoiding unwanted clippings arghhh!!! .you don'thave do compress ,if you don't wanna do this before the Mix-stage yet.just the fact,that your signal goes tube,will enrich it.
i would buy the enhancer only ,if you wanna add more high or low frequencies.but
you can do that with a good software equalizer/enhancer too.
the 2 way comp should also be useful for mastering purposes
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
for the compressor,in this case you can at least limit your inputsignals for avoiding unwanted clippings arghhh!!! .you don'thave do compress ,if you don't wanna do this before the Mix-stage yet.just the fact,that your signal goes tube,will enrich it.
i would buy the enhancer only ,if you wanna add more high or low frequencies.but
you can do that with a good software equalizer/enhancer too.
the 2 way comp should also be useful for mastering purposes
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
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- KVRian
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
Ah, interesting! I don't have a good preamp actually and recently bought a good mic for vocals, so the 8100 looks very interesting to me. They don't seem to sell it at Thomann though. Darn!premiumcrap wrote:if you already own a good mic pre or a mixer with good mic/line inputs,i would decide
for the compressor,in this case you can at least limit your inputsignals for avoiding unwanted clippings arghhh!!! .you don'thave do compress ,if you don't wanna do this before the Mix-stage yet.just the fact,that your signal goes tube,will enrich it.
i would buy the enhancer only ,if you wanna add more high or low frequencies.but
you can do that with a good software equalizer/enhancer too.
the 2 way comp should also be useful for mastering purposes
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 148 posts since 11 Sep, 2006 from in my own little orbit
in reading some tube preamp reviews before stopping by here, the general consensus was that art wasn't great as mentioned here and that presonus units are noisy to terrible sounding.
the one review i read for a behringer unit fared a little better.
one unit that alot of people seemed to like that no-one here has mentioned yet is the Studio Projects UTB-1 ($100-$120) reviews claimed it has a low noise floor and can sound pretty clean.
i'd seen the electro-harmonix pedal already but dismissed it because it was a pedal. i didn't even know it was a stereo unit. i had planned on just getting a mono unit and processing stereo tracks one pass at a time.
as to mic preamps, i love my little behringer mixer. it's really transparent with my PZM mics. i also love the fat synthetic sound it makes when overloaded. i LIKE the sound of clipping distortion. it really fattens and electrifies bass drums.
i'll have to give the E-H unit more consideration now. it also looks like you can dial a variety of tones in.
mentioning the difference in tube sounds is a great reminder too. it was wierd that the sovtek tubes faired badly as i seem to remember them being higher rated in hi-fi magazines, but then again, they're not trying to overload on purpose.
what ever happened to groove tubes?
the one review i read for a behringer unit fared a little better.
one unit that alot of people seemed to like that no-one here has mentioned yet is the Studio Projects UTB-1 ($100-$120) reviews claimed it has a low noise floor and can sound pretty clean.
i'd seen the electro-harmonix pedal already but dismissed it because it was a pedal. i didn't even know it was a stereo unit. i had planned on just getting a mono unit and processing stereo tracks one pass at a time.
as to mic preamps, i love my little behringer mixer. it's really transparent with my PZM mics. i also love the fat synthetic sound it makes when overloaded. i LIKE the sound of clipping distortion. it really fattens and electrifies bass drums.
i'll have to give the E-H unit more consideration now. it also looks like you can dial a variety of tones in.
mentioning the difference in tube sounds is a great reminder too. it was wierd that the sovtek tubes faired badly as i seem to remember them being higher rated in hi-fi magazines, but then again, they're not trying to overload on purpose.
what ever happened to groove tubes?
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- KVRist
- 460 posts since 13 Sep, 2004
My secret weapon is a home made tube preamp. I just ran my tracks through it and record them back into Cubase. The results are great! 
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 19 Mar, 2004 from vienna
sorry gambitron: i think this was a missunderstanding with the sovtek tubes.
only the cheaper 12AX7WA and WB and WC are not so well suited to "Recording/Hifi/Studio
use",but they are often used in guitar amps.
THE SOVTEK 12AX7LPS is a very different story..
it's ideal for studio preamps/compressors ,cause of it's linearity and smoothness...read the tests!
http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html
it's also my favorite tube at the moment...and it's not as expensive as NOS (new old stock) tubes are.
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
only the cheaper 12AX7WA and WB and WC are not so well suited to "Recording/Hifi/Studio
use",but they are often used in guitar amps.
THE SOVTEK 12AX7LPS is a very different story..
it's ideal for studio preamps/compressors ,cause of it's linearity and smoothness...read the tests!
http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html
it's also my favorite tube at the moment...and it's not as expensive as NOS (new old stock) tubes are.
http://www.soundclick.com/premiumcrap
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- KVRian
- 1144 posts since 26 Sep, 2005 from Germany
I would say use the right sound source.
Most VST sound crappy. That won't improve too much with any kind of fx...
I did try this over the last years. But at the end its a waste of time....
If you want analog sound, take an analog sound source. RUNNING A VSTi THROUGH AN EXPENSIVE PREAMP is a waste of time.
Its like a bad singer voice through many fx.... A good singer will always sound better dry than the effected bad one.
There are really good analog classic synths you can get cheap on ebay. And they deliver the right sound out of the box without any fx.
Add some fx and they even sound better.
I think VSTi's are an addition, not a replacement.
Most VST sound crappy. That won't improve too much with any kind of fx...
I did try this over the last years. But at the end its a waste of time....
If you want analog sound, take an analog sound source. RUNNING A VSTi THROUGH AN EXPENSIVE PREAMP is a waste of time.
Its like a bad singer voice through many fx.... A good singer will always sound better dry than the effected bad one.
There are really good analog classic synths you can get cheap on ebay. And they deliver the right sound out of the box without any fx.
Add some fx and they even sound better.
I think VSTi's are an addition, not a replacement.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 148 posts since 11 Sep, 2006 from in my own little orbit
well i'm trying to limit myself to just freeware and donationware at the moment and i've had TERRIBLE luck buying used gear. back around 95, i bought an emax for $650 on consignment at a used gear dealer. they 1st shipped it with bent rack ears (that should have been a clue) and sent it back with half a users manual. by the time i got a full users manual, i learrned i needed a midi keyboard to even test it. i thought i could access everything through the front panel. by the time i got a keyboard and powered it up, i found the hard drive literally HOWLS nonstop and that once you load about 8 short samples, it starts to glitch.
i'm not keen on buying someone elses problem. besides, i like the idea of freeware and want to promote that anti-capitalist ideal.
don't get me started on forced PC upgrades and planned obsolescence!
i also bought a fostex 8 track for about $950 back then only to find the metering wasn't accurate on one track.
now i can do EVERYTHING that i never could even with $1500 worth of hardware junk for free. of course it'll sound digital. i'm clearly aware of that but after 2o years of wanting to make music and never having everything i needed (i've still never used a sequencer) i can't wait to get a new $500 PC and give my CM studio and 48 track samplitude V8 SE software a workout.
cheesy digital sound is better than no sound at all.
20 years is a long time.
i'm not keen on buying someone elses problem. besides, i like the idea of freeware and want to promote that anti-capitalist ideal.
don't get me started on forced PC upgrades and planned obsolescence!
i also bought a fostex 8 track for about $950 back then only to find the metering wasn't accurate on one track.
now i can do EVERYTHING that i never could even with $1500 worth of hardware junk for free. of course it'll sound digital. i'm clearly aware of that but after 2o years of wanting to make music and never having everything i needed (i've still never used a sequencer) i can't wait to get a new $500 PC and give my CM studio and 48 track samplitude V8 SE software a workout.
cheesy digital sound is better than no sound at all.
20 years is a long time.
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- KVRian
- 1359 posts since 5 Mar, 2005
You'll end up with a worser digital sound depending too heavily on freeware. The right sound 'in the box' is about searching, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Your going to have to audition hundreds of effects and synths, both commercial and freeware.
A starting point is below:
VSTI's:
1. Tassman 4 (very warm, rich, analog sound, and plays with good expression. It's not only a synth/synth-creater but a drum machine and effect processor as well, one of the best sounding beasts out here).
2. Firebird synth (higher pitched treble sound that's clear and well defined).
3. Cakewalk rapture (dark warm bassy sounds).
4. Dimension pro ( Great sampler/synth with high quality sample library of traditional instruments).
VST EFFECTS:
1. Classik Studio Reverb
2. Wizooverb 2
3. UAD-1 Dreamverb
4. Voxengo marquis compressor
5. Voxengo analog flux (tapebus is dynamite).
6. kjaerhus mpl-1 limiter
7. kjaerhus golden audio gate plugin
8. Uad neve 33609 (many say it sounds like actual hardware, not digital at all).
9. Uad-1 fairchild
10.Uad-1 1176 LN
A good sampler and sequencer program like Cakewalk's Sonar and Cakewalk's project 5, both have nice sounding audio engines (something often overlooked when people buy sequencing audio host programs).
Very nice sound quality is keeping every link on your music equipment chain strong, from hardware to all virtual stuff.A very high quality sound can be created in the computer if your willing to search,study and pay.
A starting point is below:
VSTI's:
1. Tassman 4 (very warm, rich, analog sound, and plays with good expression. It's not only a synth/synth-creater but a drum machine and effect processor as well, one of the best sounding beasts out here).
2. Firebird synth (higher pitched treble sound that's clear and well defined).
3. Cakewalk rapture (dark warm bassy sounds).
4. Dimension pro ( Great sampler/synth with high quality sample library of traditional instruments).
VST EFFECTS:
1. Classik Studio Reverb
2. Wizooverb 2
3. UAD-1 Dreamverb
4. Voxengo marquis compressor
5. Voxengo analog flux (tapebus is dynamite).
6. kjaerhus mpl-1 limiter
7. kjaerhus golden audio gate plugin
8. Uad neve 33609 (many say it sounds like actual hardware, not digital at all).
9. Uad-1 fairchild
10.Uad-1 1176 LN
A good sampler and sequencer program like Cakewalk's Sonar and Cakewalk's project 5, both have nice sounding audio engines (something often overlooked when people buy sequencing audio host programs).
Very nice sound quality is keeping every link on your music equipment chain strong, from hardware to all virtual stuff.A very high quality sound can be created in the computer if your willing to search,study and pay.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 148 posts since 11 Sep, 2006 from in my own little orbit
i have total issues with cakewalk... they can kiss my...
they had a nice program around 2002 for mixing on older PCs that they stopped making just a year later. then when i asked about getting start codes for used CDs they said no, so they are hard butt promoters of planned obsolescence and i really DESPISE that. you are literally FORCED at gunpoint to keep upgrading your hardware and software. that's a big reason i'm pro freeware. i hate the greed industry.
by the way, rogue music's reply to my busted emax was "it's been over 2 weeks... it sucks to be you... thanks for your $650, now go away"
the software i'm going to start out with is my copy of samplitude V8 SE that came with my CM magazine DVD along with CM studio.
while i'm not totally keen on the sterile sound of digital, i am pumped about being able to finally make music without endless investing.
i'll make a note of the effects you listed, but i already know that the mpl-limiter isn't freeware. i have a demo of it on one of my discs. i've been following many of the "best of VST effects" threads here before i ever joined and now i'm digging deeper into those.
i'm not 110% about quality and won't spend unlimited amounts of money to get it as i have no plans to make music for profit. my music will be freeware itself. i'm not going to spend ANOTHER couple thousand dollars just to stroke my ego.
as to synths, i've found a few that i really liked...
karmaFX really does those fat percussive basses and wet rubbery buzzes i like well and can do a decent variety of sounds. i'll be using that one ALOT
asynth does some really fat analogue type sounds too
kuso synth is very digital sounding, but i love it's cheesy toy sound alot and could see it being great with some bit crushing, tube warmth & filtering
hammerhand... i love the tin can sounds this makes
and in general, i'll be using a few other modelling synths like xoxos units and various "nintendo" synths with alot of vocoding and dub style tape reverbs.
that all of this stuff is available as freeware is what has finally motivated me to quit my 20 years of procrastination and junk collecting and just make music.
i get really impatient with "money money money" mentality. my "car" is a 1992 huffy revolution mountain bike. that's where i'm coming from.
long live freeware!
now let's burn bill gates and cakewalk in effigy.
they had a nice program around 2002 for mixing on older PCs that they stopped making just a year later. then when i asked about getting start codes for used CDs they said no, so they are hard butt promoters of planned obsolescence and i really DESPISE that. you are literally FORCED at gunpoint to keep upgrading your hardware and software. that's a big reason i'm pro freeware. i hate the greed industry.
by the way, rogue music's reply to my busted emax was "it's been over 2 weeks... it sucks to be you... thanks for your $650, now go away"
the software i'm going to start out with is my copy of samplitude V8 SE that came with my CM magazine DVD along with CM studio.
while i'm not totally keen on the sterile sound of digital, i am pumped about being able to finally make music without endless investing.
i'll make a note of the effects you listed, but i already know that the mpl-limiter isn't freeware. i have a demo of it on one of my discs. i've been following many of the "best of VST effects" threads here before i ever joined and now i'm digging deeper into those.
i'm not 110% about quality and won't spend unlimited amounts of money to get it as i have no plans to make music for profit. my music will be freeware itself. i'm not going to spend ANOTHER couple thousand dollars just to stroke my ego.
as to synths, i've found a few that i really liked...
karmaFX really does those fat percussive basses and wet rubbery buzzes i like well and can do a decent variety of sounds. i'll be using that one ALOT
asynth does some really fat analogue type sounds too
kuso synth is very digital sounding, but i love it's cheesy toy sound alot and could see it being great with some bit crushing, tube warmth & filtering
hammerhand... i love the tin can sounds this makes
and in general, i'll be using a few other modelling synths like xoxos units and various "nintendo" synths with alot of vocoding and dub style tape reverbs.
that all of this stuff is available as freeware is what has finally motivated me to quit my 20 years of procrastination and junk collecting and just make music.
i get really impatient with "money money money" mentality. my "car" is a 1992 huffy revolution mountain bike. that's where i'm coming from.
long live freeware!
now let's burn bill gates and cakewalk in effigy.