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Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:01 pm

It's true. FWIW No Name I absolutely LOVE the progression you've stumbled onto, which is to play a minor chord and then move the 5 to a 6. It's so freaking cool.

If you're in the minor and you really want to darken things up (as I often do) it might help to switch to the Phrygian mode (or at least do so temporarily and employ a N6).

I had a progression that went C-Eb-G; C-Eb-A; C-Eb-G; Db-Eb-G; Db-F-A... it's not super dark but it's pretty sweet to have that m2 in the melody.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:12 pm

No name wrote:Dammit, I messed up my chord writing again.

It's, ummm, I guess a C# with an augmented 5th? (G#,C#,E) Well, at least the fifth is agumented in the root position. :Lol:

Anyways I take it to mean that you say I should jump to G minor? Which, if i'm correct is G-B-D? Cause that right there is sounding pretty dark! Stays in key too.

I should also mention for the sake of convenience that it is in natural minor.

I think you might benefit from brushing up on your chords and triads.

C#-E-G# is the triad of C# minor. (C# to G# is a perfect 5th, not an augmented 5th).

G-B-D is the triad of G major. (Major 3rd, perfect 5th).

G-Bb-D would be the triad of G minor (Minor 3rd, perfect 5th).

Note, a triad contains two lots of thirds. When arranged in in this way, the bottom note is the name of the triad (and it's in root position). The triad contains the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.

Read more details in my Introduction to Music Theory.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:44 pm

No name wrote:I'm trying to create a more dramatic, darker piece.

If you really want a dark and eerie sound, you should consider the use of diminished sevenths. - These are extremely dissonant, and create a real sound of horror or suspense.

Take the following quick example:

Don't be put off by how it looks; I've done it in C# minor as you indicated.

The chords in the above example (from left to right) are:
C# minor (root position)
Fx diminished seventh (3rd inversion)
B# diminished triad (1st inversion)
C# minor (root position).

Note Fx means F double-sharp (the same enharmonically as G natural).
Note also that I have used the harmonic minor, in order to create a diminished chord on the seventh degree of the scale.

No name · Post by **No name** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:49 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
No name wrote:Dammit, I messed up my chord writing again.

It's, ummm, I guess a C# with an augmented 5th? (G#,C#,E) Well, at least the fifth is agumented in the root position. :Lol:

Anyways I take it to mean that you say I should jump to G minor? Which, if i'm correct is G-B-D? Cause that right there is sounding pretty dark! Stays in key too.

I should also mention for the sake of convenience that it is in natural minor.
I think you might benefit from brushing up on your chords and triads.

C#-E-G# is the triad of C# minor. (C# to G# is a perfect 5th, not an augmented 5th).

G-B-D is the triad of G major. (Major 3rd, perfect 5th).

G-Bb-D would be the triad of G minor (Minor 3rd, perfect 5th).

Note, a triad contains two lots of thirds. When arranged in in this way, the bottom note is the name of the triad (and it's in root position). The triad contains the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.

Read more details in my Introduction to Music Theory.

Thank you for correcting me. I think more study is in order.

I really haven't studied as much as i'd like to, and when you layed that out for me right there, it seemed so obvious to me, but earlier it didn't at all!

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:51 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
No name wrote:I'm trying to create a more dramatic, darker piece.
If you really want a dark and eerie sound, you should consider the use of diminished sevenths. - These are extremely dissonant, and create a real sound of horror or suspense.

Then play the Half-Whole Diminished scale over them. Two tritones per chord and a minor 9th in every non chord tone. Now! That's what I call dissonance (67)

k-bird · Post by **k-bird** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:55 pm

Reading this i can't help but think if you wanted to really amp up the dissonances you wouldn't be working in 12-tone equal temperament, let alone with diatonic scales.

No name · Post by **No name** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:02 pm

Well, the thing is, I don't want to be too dissonant, and this part for the choir only lasts like 4 measure, and the rest of the piece sounds swell. I'm especially not willing to go and play around with anything other than the diatonic scales right now anyways because i'm a newbie in theory, and doing anything in an atonal (I don't think thatis the correct term) would be treading into unknown territory for me. I need dissonance, but it's more like a spice for a single part of the piece than it is the piece itself. I just needed something that sounded a bit darker, and when I thought "darker" then dissonance came to mind.

If i'm not mistaken, you are the creator of the ravensspiral guide, correct? If so then I truly thank you for such a wonderful tool in helping us all understand theory better.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:09 pm

k-bird wrote:Reading this i can't help but think if you wanted to really amp up the dissonances you wouldn't be working in 12-tone equal temperament, let alone with diatonic scales.

Well, it depends.

Without consonance, there can be no dissonance.
In other words, if it's just purely A-tonal (like Serialism for example), you are not going to get much of a sense of tension, because there is nothing (no resolution) to compare it against. - It will probably all just sound random.

Take the famous theme to Halloween for example, a classic horror film if ever there was one. Although it does use the odd chromaticism, it is quite clearly in F# minor, and uses mostly minor chords throughout. - This brings up another issue, creating such an atmosphere is not solely dependant on harmony, but on the use of other musical devices which provide suspense. For example; drones, ostinatos, tremolo etc.

Nevertheless, being more A-tonal is one option, I grant you that.

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:50 pm

You can also use a root progression by a tritone. This brings uncertainity and strange sound (this is the least valuable root progression). You can make it more satisfactory if the other chord tones move in minor seconds (or at least one of them) because of the smoothness - the melodic power of this interval attracts our attention.
You can use clusters or create sequence of diminished seventh chords, but then you'll be more dissonant.
BTW, atonal is a word that doesn't mean pure, 100% atonality. Due to acoustical laws and reasons, this is impossible (utopia). Yes, tonal centers can be observed in serial music, although they are clouded and change rapidly fast.
Another option is to use the dark Phrygian mode.
And yes, only dissonance without consonance would dull the ear and lose its character (the relativity at work again).

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:02 pm

It would be good idea if you posted a snipplet of the "sound environment" you are working in with this chord.
As Jack already mentioned, these things can make a fundamental difference. A simple minor chord without any changes already has a potential to sound pretty dark, assuming it's presented in such a way.

No name · Post by **No name** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:45 pm

I don't know if i'll be able to get around to it tonight, as it is still really rough, but I probably will within the next few days, just to give you guys a hint at it.

Signal chain · Post by **Signal chain** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:58 pm

I'm sorry to chime in, in an already "7 days sleeping thread"
but I 've found interesting among the others the advice of useing the Phrigian mode to get a dark feeling .

Now as a beginner .....

is Phrigian an other minor scale option or something interchangeble when I am using minor keys?

what should I change to my chord progression if I use a phrigian scale while I usally stay in harmonic minor?

sorry to annoying you with these question, and I take the opportunity to say thanks for this so important theory forum .
marco.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:05 pm

Signal chain wrote:I'm sorry to chime in, in an already "7 days sleeping thread"
but I 've found interesting among the others the advice of useing the Phrigian mode to get a dark feeling .

Now as a beginner .....

is Phrigian an other minor scale option or something interchangeble when I am using minor keys?

what should I change to my chord progression if I use a phrigian scale while I usally stay in harmonic minor?

sorry to annoying you with these question, and I take the opportunity to say thanks for this so important theory forum .
marco.

The Phrygian Mode is one of several modes. - Basically, every note of any given scale has a mode attached to it; that is, you play the same scale but start (and end) on a different note. Thus, their overall feeling is neither major nor minor. - The Phrygian Mode starts on the 3rd degree of the major scale. Eg. all the white-notes on the piano starting on E. It is therefore a major scale with flattened 2nd, flattened 3rd, flattened 6th and flattened 7th. (or a natural minor scale with flattened 2nd). Pattern of intervals: Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone.

All the modes are detailed in my post on Scales, Modes and Chords.

Signal chain · Post by **Signal chain** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:18 pm

Thanks for the quick answer and for your very much appreciated tutorial I thought I 've red them all
thanks again

marco

Help with figuring out what chord to move to next.