Good Soundcard for ~$100?

[newbie_here]

Mmm dang it. Sorry guys but now Im sooo confused

The Audiophile is a souncard right? Good for games etc.. but also has a little audio interface right? I though it had entry for MIDI (which I probably wont need since the lil' keyboard Im buying is USB anyway).
Why cant I just plug in my guitar the way Ive done so far? (I got a converter for my guitar plug that hooks it into the line in of the onboard card).

Now after checking tweakheadz guide* like for the third time... I think I finally know what a mixer is. A little box that contains a LOT of line in's for lotsa instruments (since Im using just guitar and maybe microphone in the future I guess I just need two, in which case I dont think I need a mixer).
Does it contain effects and such? I dont think so right? As effects are for hardware synths and samplers, and Im going software anyway.

So as you can see I cant still see the clear difference between a soundcard (creative audigy FX $500 for example), audio interface'd souncard (likely the audiophile), audio interface and mixer

Now... the UX1/UX2 are USB... what in the?
So it means they get plugged into an USB port... fine... but then... what about soundcard? Does it work like one? (Or is it maybe one of those -as mentioned in the tweakheadz guide- audio interfaces + PCI soundcard )

One thing that dissapointed me... was that I checked the UX1 and it said it had effects... so I was like "YES! HARDWARE EFFECTS! COOL!" but they are just in the bundled software

Thanks so much for your help guys... really appreciate it... sorry to sound so n00bish but I guess we have to start somewhere

*http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm

[Sascha Franck]

For a guitar player, the Toneport models might indeed be a nice choice.
Alternatively, one could as well get a preamp in addition to whatever soundcard (my vote would go for the AP, as the drivers are nothing but excellent), but even with the cheapest decent one (probably something like M-Audios Audiobuddy), the cost would be a tad higher already.

In the end, if you want lowest possible latencies, go for a PCI solution. If you don't, the Toneport will be fine (and it has all the nice amp models coming with it). And of course, being USB, it's sort of future-proof, whereas PCI might be not.

[deaf dunderkwac]

what Sascha said...
The UX1 et al ARE soundcards.
You will have no latencies issues with them, as opposed to using other devices.

[The Chase]

emu all the way.

[newbie_here]

In the end, if you want lowest possible latencies, go for a PCI solution. If you don't, the Toneport will be fine (and it has all the nice amp models coming with it). And of course, being USB, it's sort of future-proof, whereas PCI might be not.

So you mean USB sucks for 0-latency, or its just that, if I get USB, and put like a 10 KB VST in my host it will be fine, but TonePort + lets say EZdrummer will make latencies high like hell?

And can this work as a normal soundcard for games etc? Its just weird for me that is USB

Also could you answer my other questions? Like about guitar on soundboard card adapter, differences between mixer /audio interface etc...

And last but not least... the UX1 is basically the UX2 just that it doesnt contain as much outputs and inputs (which Im not gonna need anyway for now), but same sound quality?

Thanks

[Jay Sherman]

Mmm dang it. Sorry guys but now Im sooo confused

The Audiophile is a souncard right? Good for games etc.. but also has a little audio interface right? I though it had entry for MIDI (which I probably wont need since the lil' keyboard Im buying is USB anyway).

Yes, the AP 2496 does both audio and midi. I use an AP 2496 for just vocals. I had earlier got a midi-unosport (a $50 external midi interface) for midi and haven't bothered to get midi working through the 2496 but it can do both audio and midi.

Why cant I just plug in my guitar the way Ive done so far? (I got a converter for my guitar plug that hooks it into the line in of the onboard card).

I don't play guitar.... You can record guitar thourgh a mic.... through the 2496.... Otherwise I don't know.

Now after checking tweakheadz guide* like for the third time... I think I finally know what a mixer is. A little box that contains a LOT of line in's for lotsa instruments (since Im using just guitar and maybe microphone in the future I guess I just need two, in which case I dont think I need a mixer).

I don't even understand what they're talking about a mixer for...??? You would need a preamp to go with the AP 2496. (Like microphone into preamp then into 2496). The one I got was another $120 on top of the $100 for the 2496. Using an external interface instead of a PCI soundcard could be cheaper... Personally I tried a FastTrack USB external interface and couldn't get it to work for unknown reasons on my computer. From a lot of reading I gather that sort of thing is much more likely to happen with cheap external interfaces as opposed to a PCI soundcard.

Does it contain effects and such? I dont think so right? As effects are for hardware synths and samplers, and Im going software anyway.

I just use Reaper as my mixer, its effects + free effect plugins from this site. Again, I don't understand why people are saying you'd need a hardware mixer....

Now... the UX1/UX2 are USB... what in the?
So it means they get plugged into an USB port... fine... but then... what about soundcard? Does it work like one? (Or is it maybe one of those -as mentioned in the tweakheadz guide- audio interfaces + PCI soundcard )

So then you still just use the soundcard your computer came with. Which probably doesn't have quite as good of sound as the AP 2496.

I'm pretty new to this myself and don't mean to sound like I think the people talking about mixer's are clueless or something. I assume they know more than me and just assume you have a different type usage in mind than I'm assuming.

[tomg]

Mmm dang it. Sorry guys but now Im sooo confused

One thing that dissapointed me... was that I checked the UX1 and it said it had effects... so I was like "YES! HARDWARE EFFECTS! COOL!" but they are just in the bundled software

Thanks so much for your help guys... really appreciate it... sorry to sound so n00bish but I guess we have to start somewhere

*http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm

You get drivers. I'm not sure that they work with everything but I'd bet a ten spot that they do. The 2496 drivers do not work with ATI TV Wonder cards, if that's a consideration. Latency is not a problem anymore that anything else is. Seems to work just fine. I had a thing going last night using 10 (low cpu) VSTi's all running at once in eXT along with 4 audio tracks and a master reverb. I haven't pushed it beyond that but it seemed like it still had a few horses left. I was impressed at the time... might still be? I'll have to load it back up and see.

Everything gets a few bad reviews from users that don't know what they are doing. Not this puppy. I think I've seen just one and it was clear he did not know how to setup the driver.

Here's the SOS review.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/a ... 483662fdac

[Jay Sherman]

Everything gets a few bad reviews from users that don't know what they are doing. Not this puppy. I think I've seen just one and it was clear he did not know how to setup the driver.

Here's the SOS review.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/a ... 483662fdac

reviews from Musician's Friend:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=r ... 00/rpp=10/

Oct 13, 2006 - I bought this and plugged it into my beefy PC that has 2 GB RAM, a TB of disk space, 3.4 ghz processor. It never worked properly. Sporadic hissing and noise that nearly drove me to deafness when using my headphones. I tweaked the cache and played with every setting possible. I spent hours trying to fix this thing. I tried a powered USB 2.0 hub even though my pc has powered ports. I tried several high quality USB wires. Nothing!! Insanity and deafness approaching I decided to take it back. Screw Line 6 I thought! Well I never got around to it and and decided to build another PC for my recroom. This PC is 1.7 GHZ proc, 20 GB hard drive & 1 GB of RAM. I had to buy a USB 2.0 PCI card because it only supported USB 1.0. The damn thing works flawlessly now. No tweaks no nothing!! I don't get it and keep in mind I am a PC guy by profession. I bought it so I could play as loud as I like and whenever I wanted to without waking the ball and chain. I like it - It works now. Keep your reciept it's a crap shoot.

Jul 20, 2006 - I purchased the UX1 after reading a great deal about the unit online. Unfortunately we tried it on my laptop (which far excedes the required amount of RAM,HD,Processor)yet could not get the violent bursts of noise to quit (a commmon occurence with these you can read about online). I read many support blogs (and contacted line6) and was advised that if I had a certain chipset my computer may experience those problems. Oddly my computer did not have one of the many chipsets they listed, but still had the problems. So I continued to read more blogs and tried the unit with a powered USB hub, a grounded/non grounded/groundlift power source from my laptop...and every other wacky tip I found on the blogs. But nothing worked. I wound up trying the unit on a friends computer who uses several high-line interfaces on a seriously tricked out computer set up for recording... we had the same problems. I then decided to return the unit and get another one. SAME PROBLEMS! So, my advice is simple: keep your receipt, try it out, if it doesn't work return it! Easily save yourself the torture I went through. I have heard from several owners that this piece either works for you right out of the box or doesn't, and there is no need to drop cash on upgrades (RAM ect...) way beyond the specs as well as buying a USB 2.0 powered port ect... take it from me! Just a note for the folks that may still think I don't know what I am doing, I now have a M-Audio FireWire 410 running into a PCMCIA firewire port and have no latency or noise problems whatsoever. Good luck!

Again, cheap external interfaces (including tonesport) sometimes just don't work on certain computers and it doesn't matter how computer literate you are. If a person doesn't mind possibly wasting some time, then it's probably no big deal. It annoyed the hell out of me as exchanging it meant another month without audio capabilities.

[newbie_here]

Thanks guys.

Well Jay Sherman, I was talking about mixers in a general sense of the word.. like in the audio world... because I was confused about this thing (UX1/2).

But now I think I have it clear thanks to tomg's link.
The UX1/UX2 are just... audio interfaces... no soundcards as you say they will need my onboard on then...
So basically I have no use for them, since I dont think there is a point on buying them, then being tied to my crappy "Realtek ALC883 8 Channel Audio Codec".

I want a REAL soundcard... something that improves my overall perception of sounds on my computer... hence the Audiophile is the way to go...
All the n00b guides always recommend to get a good soundcard... so that's the reason Im asking for help around the gurus in here.

About my guitar it is still unclear why you guys say I need a mixer or a DIV1 (whatever ) thingy, because Im using this with my onboard one

http://www.electronix.com/catalog/popup ... p/pID/4094

So that's a 1/4" to RCA connector.
I guess with the other line ins in the Audiophile I can get a microphone somehow, and with the line outs Ill be able to connect to the subwoffer Im getting later...

I guess I got all excited about the UX1 since it seems "cool" but I dont need an audio interface, I need a soundcard

[Sascha Franck]

So you mean USB sucks for 0-latency, or its just that, if I get USB, and put like a 10 KB VST in my host it will be fine, but TonePort + lets say EZdrummer will make latencies high like hell?

Ok, let's not start to confuse things.
Latency is what we call the amount of time it takes from an action being taken to the actual result being heard. As an example, when you press a key on your keyboard it will take a little while until you actually hear the sound. To reduce that amount of time is all what good drivers, proper cards and what not is about. In an ideal world you shouldn't notice latency at all. But, most if not all consumer cards simply don't come with drivers good enough for that.
As you may see, latency is all about drivers. Ok, it is as well about computer horsepower, as lowest possible latencies usually tax your CPU a bit harder than higher latencies. But even that depends on the drivers and on your used host as well. It's got nothing to do with the used plugins per se (even if some of them add latency on their own, but that's quite a different story).
Now, there's, hm, let's say, two kinds of latency. When you deal with a MIDI keyboard and virtual instruments, you will have a slight MIDI latency (ideally this shouldn't be large enough to notice) and the outputs audio latency, the latter being dependent on your cards driver.
When you deal with audio software monitoring (this is what you may want to do when using software guitar amp sims), the cards latency is coming twice, one time for the input, one time for the output - so us audio software monitoring folks should be even more aware of possible, unwanted side-effects of higher latencies (such as your timing getting messed up).

Latency is usually reported/set in samples and/or milliseconds. Good values start at something around 256 samples, which (again ideally, more on that soon) should equal around 6ms. But, this value is only valid for the output. Considering that it comes twice in case you're monitoring audio through software, we're at 12ms already. Picky players will notice such a latency most likely.
In addition, all cards and their drivers introduce some sort of "safety buffers", which will again increase the latency (these safety buffers usually go unnoticed in manuals and tests, unfortunately...). That's why in proper tests you will sometimes see a "total I/O latency under XYZ samples" measurment.

Ok, why am I telling you all this? Because it might be important for your decisions about what to get.

As far as USB soundcards go, you should be aware of the following factors:
- Usually, the lowest possible latencies you can set in your drivers menu are somewhat higher than what is possible with PCI cards.
- USB soundcards cause a somewhat higher CPU load under low latencies, compared to proper PCI models. These days, with our powerful computers, it might be neglectible though.
- Most (I'd even say all) USB cards come with a higher amount of the aforementioned "safety buffers", which will raise your overall latency again.

Now, all this sounds pretty much as if USB soundcards are no good idea.
And, generally (as said before) they aren't, compared to PCI models.
But then, it all comes down to your needs. USB cards aren't as bad as the listed points might make you think.
Quite some of them offer low enough latencies to work fine with audio software monitoring.
In addition, you will more likely find a model suiting your modest home studio needs (such as having integrated instrument and mic inputs onboard for a relatively low price, something you usually won't find on cheaper PCI cards).

And then there's something like the Toneport models, which are quite different beasts again.
The Toneport features some build in amp models (really nice sounding ones, I think) that you can monitor directly, without any additional driver latency (the direct monitoring is causing a slight latency as well, but it seems to be really low).
The downside being that you will have to record that very amp model sound, without any options to change it later on (unless you split your sound, but I'd rather not discuss this yet), something you could do with a 100% software based amp (read: a plugin). But then, for decades guitarists have been recording their amp sounds straight, and it seemed to work just fine - so that's probably not something to worry about in the first place.

Another advance of using an USB soundcard would be that you can use it on virtually any computer. You might want to go mobile one day. With a PCI card you'd be out of luck, whereas USB should be just fine for quite a number of years to come.

Ok, bottomline so far:
- If you want the lowest possible latencies, if you want best driver performance, PCI is still the way to go.
- If you want a small, convenient solution which is sort of "future-proof" as well, a USB soundcard might just be fine.

And can this work as a normal soundcard for games etc? Its just weird for me that is USB

This all depends on the drivers, USB itself is perfectly working. These days, most USB soundcard drivers should work fine for games as well.

Also could you answer my other questions? Like about guitar on soundboard card adapter, differences between mixer /audio interface etc...

Ok, let's see.
First, it all depends on what signals you want to record and how you'd like to record them.

Most "plain" soundcards (such as the already mentioned Audiophile) feature simple line ins.
These require a line-level signal at low impedance.
When it comes to electric guitar recording, they won't do you any good without additional stuff.
A plain, passive electric guitar will throw out a high-impedance signal which isn't even near line level. So you'd need something to convert it to low-impedance (which, say, a DI box is doing) and something to bring it up to line level (which is what preamps and mixers are good for).
Then, when it comes to microphone recording, you need a suitable mic input. Again something a preamp or a mixer should do. In case you have a condenser mic, you may even need phantom power on said preamp/mixer.
Your standard computer soundcard won't do you any good with either signal. Not only don't they offer an instrument capable input, they're usually noisy as well and the converters are everything but decent. In short: if you want at least somewhat decent results, forget about it!

Fortunately, the audio hardware industry has noticed such needs for us mere modest home studio owners. So these days, unless you are tracking loads of different sources (probably even at the same time), you won't need any mixers anymore. And you often won't even need a preamp anymore either - unless you're going for extra quality or for a soundcard (such as the Audiophile) which hasn't got any preamp funtionality.
Regarding all these aspects, something such as the Toneport is just perfect. It has a socalled "hi-z" (high impedance) input, suitable for instrument signals and it has mic input(s) as well.
There's a whole bunch of other cards doing the same as well, they usually vary in their feature sets and converter quality - the Toneport clearly offering the advance of Line6's amp models being integrated.

Also, if you would decide to go for the Audiophile (or Emu) PCI solution, there's really cheap, yet decent preamps, such as the already mentioned Audiobuddy. It's suitable for both mic and instrument signals as well.

So, as you may see, there's solutions for almost everybody.
Considering your budget, it looks as if a Toneport could indeed be a nice way to go.

And last but not least... the UX1 is basically the UX2 just that it doesnt contain as much outputs and inputs (which Im not gonna need anyway for now), but same sound quality?

I think so. The only main difference seems to be the lack of phantom power on the mic in of the UX1 - which will only be important if you're using a condenser mic requiring phantom power (I think for now you won't).

Btw, as you don't have a MIDI keyboard yet either, you should really consider saving a bit more money and getting their KB 37. It's like the UX2 with an additional 37 key keyboard. Yes, quite a bit more expensive, but certainly a nice all-in-one solution (especially should you ever consider to go mobile).

[newbie_here]

Sascha Franck, thanks so much... really appreciate the time it took you to write such a long reply!

OK... it seems I was wrong.
As for the guitar pluggin', I think I kinda smelled the answer but wasnt sure... so I take it as the Audiophile RCA inputs are not that good... quite impressive explanation on why

So... it seems im heading for the UX1.
The KB-37 seems also great as Im buying a keyboard... the thing is, the USB keyboard I was thinking off is about $100, so you add that to the UX1 and we get around $230! And that's actually what the KB-37 costs

Im just a little hesitant in regards of commodity... if I just want to plug in my guitar I also have to plugin the keyboard and all
So anyway if I dont get that, I get the UX1.

There are only these questions remaining...
1. Given the fact somebody already stated some users had problem with the Toneport and allegedly they could be too "cheap" I dunno about that... doesnt give one much confidence
2. It works also as a soundcard right? Like If I wanna play dolby 5.1 I plug in the UX1 or KB-37 and bang! Home theater solution ideal for my DVD Movies or games right? I guess windows takes care of the rest (disabling the onboard card while the Toneport is plugged into my USB port). I mean, like, it works also as a "good soundcard for poor man's music business solution outbeating the cheesy onboard one"?


Thanks for your time

[krushing]

Audio interface = soundcard.

[phatty]

Outstanding post Sascha......truly informative...

[Sascha Franck]

1. Given the fact somebody already stated some users had problem with the Toneport and allegedly they could be too "cheap" I dunno about that... doesnt give one much confidence

Well, I don't own a Toneport, so I can't tell, but the hardware quality defenitely isn't too shiny. I wouldn't throw it around too much. But for home use things should be fine.
I could also imagine that the converters aren't too shiny. Yet, again, for home studio needs they seem to be quite fine.
I mean, as with almost everything, you have to expect some drawbacks when buying cheaper products. You simply don't get a Mercedes for the price of a Seat Ibiza.

2. It works also as a soundcard right? Like If I wanna play dolby 5.1 I plug in the UX1 or KB-37 and bang! Home theater solution ideal for my DVD Movies or games right? I guess windows takes care of the rest (disabling the onboard card while the Toneport is plugged into my USB port). I mean, like, it works also as a "good soundcard for poor man's music business solution outbeating the cheesy onboard one"?

Fwiw, the Toneport *is* a soundcard. It's just a sort of dedicated soundcard.
Anyways, I don't think you'll have much luck with dolby surround setups. As I don't have any surround setup, I wouldn't happen to know how "normal" soundcards are dealing with it, but from what I seem to remember, it's that they're offering a special output that you connect to whatever your surround setup might be.
Soundcards dedicated for audio recording usually don't have any such outputs, if you want surround from them, you'd have to get one with an appropriate number of individual (physical) outputs, which would then run into the dedicated inputs of your surround amplification.
But then, if your current soundcard is capable of feeding your surround system, you can still continue using it. There's gonna be no conflicts with the Toneport, as you can assign whatever soundcard to whatever program. No need to disable either of the two (these days at least, it has been different in the past...). You could just keep your setup as is and only use the Toneport for your sequencer of choice.

[bduffy]

You can't do 5.1 sound with the KB-37, I don't think!

Ooh, Sascha beat me. I'll leave it to The Man.