Does time signature need to be strict?

[duncanparsons]

Oh, and I don't know if anyone caught the Eurovision, but Macedonia's entry had:
verse: lines of [3x]7/4 and [1x]11/4
chorus: 7/8
all done very subtly - you wouldn't notice unless you tried to dance to it, in which case you'd need 2 left feet

DSP

[Voidoid Surrealist]

Oh, and I don't know if anyone caught the Eurovision, but Macedonia's entry had:
verse: lines of [3x]7/4 and [1x]11/4
chorus: 7/8
all done very subtly - you wouldn't notice unless you tried to dance to it, in which case you'd need 2 left feet

DSP

I'm such a sucker for traditional Macedonian music in odd meters that I youtubed that. Now I remember why I don't watch stuff like Eurovision.

Maybe if they do an entry in Janino Oro time, I'll reconsider.

[Z1202]

hmmm... Actually Actually it's notated in 4/4 and 3/4 because publishers are scared of using 7/4 [and the solo is really in 12/8]..

you'll see a number of Genesis tunes (wrongly) notated in combinations of 3/4 and 4/4: consider 'Turn it on Again', Tony Banks claims it's in 13/4, strict interpretation suggests alternating 6/4 and 7/4, sheet music often gives 4/4, 2/4, 4/4, 3/4 It makes the sheet music very hard to follow, and 13 is too much to count easily, especially since it doesn't conform to well known groupings of 4 - giving the middle option as the preferred one for many

DSP

Hi Duncan

Sort of related question, if you don't mind. When I was transcribing "Firth of Fifth" intro by ear, I was completely puzzled with the time signatures, and ended up putting bar lines more or less arbitrarily. If I try to remember it from my head, the beat grouping in 16ths which I hear were kind of like following:
4+4+3+3+3+4 | 4+3+3+3+4 | etc.
which makes 21/16 for the first bar and 17/16 for the second. Could you provide any insights on that?

You're also mentioning sheet music of Genesis. Actually a while ago I was looking unsuccessfully for the sheet music of early Genesis (pre 75) and Yes (also about the same period). I mean real sheet music, not the piano reduction with all the instrumental passages missing. Now I'm thinking, that maybe transcribing by ear will be a good training for me, by anyway do you know if they are available anywhere?

Thanks
{Z}

[blurk]

hmmm... Actually Actually it's notated in 4/4 and 3/4 because publishers are scared of using 7/4

Well, the copy I have in the DSOTM sheet music book has 7/4 and 5/4. Maybe the publishers "simplified" it later.

[and the solo is really in 12/8]..

Yeah, I have to admit I haven't paid enough attention to that. I was just repeated the 4/4 folklore that's been going around. Didn't that come from an interview? Maybe in the Classic Albums documentary?

[duncanparsons]

Hi Duncan

Sort of related question, if you don't mind. When I was transcribing "Firth of Fifth" intro by ear, I was completely puzzled with the time signatures, and ended up putting bar lines more or less arbitrarily. If I try to remember it from my head, the beat grouping in 16ths which I hear were kind of like following:
4+4+3+3+3+4 | 4+3+3+3+4 | etc.
which makes 21/16 for the first bar and 17/16 for the second. Could you provide any insights on that?

You're also mentioning sheet music of Genesis. Actually a while ago I was looking unsuccessfully for the sheet music of early Genesis (pre 75) and Yes (also about the same period). I mean real sheet music, not the piano reduction with all the instrumental passages missing. Now I'm thinking, that maybe transcribing by ear will be a good training for me, by anyway do you know if they are available anywhere?

Thanks
{Z}

Firth of Fifth is in 4/4 - all of it. The intro follows fairly classical technique, with stresses flying around in different places; but if you tap it out with your fingers you'll find that the same finger starts repeated phrases.. remember that the highest/loudest note isn't always the beginning of the bar.. If you compare it to something like the piano opening to Yes' Awaken, that is all over the place, reminiscent of a Stravinsky score; tho' I'm reliably told very easy to play [it's all the same fingering taken up and down the keyboard like Mozart on pep pills].

There was a very good book that was published which had full transcriptions. It was French, I only ever saw it once, in a shop which wasn't in the slightest bit interested in having it , but sadly I was a cash strapped student who had just blown what little I had left on a second mandolin... That book correctly noted sig changes, and even had the voicings for harmony 12string parts on some tunes. I wish I'd bought it!

HTH
DSP

[Z1202]

Firth of Fifth is in 4/4 - all of it. The intro follows fairly classical technique, with stresses flying around in different places; but if you tap it out with your fingers you'll find that the same finger starts repeated phrases.. remember that the highest/loudest note isn't always the beginning of the bar..

Thanks, I'm gonna try it out.

If you compare it to something like the piano opening to Yes' Awaken, that is all over the place, reminiscent of a Stravinsky score; tho' I'm reliably told very easy to play [it's all the same fingering taken up and down the keyboard like Mozart on pep pills].

I guess I still need to expand my somewhat limited acquaintance with classical music. In fact I noticed the technique of displaced accents in some of the classical scores, it just never occured to me to apply that to Firth of Fifth where it's really stronger than what I've seen so far.

There was a very good book that was published which had full transcriptions. It was French, I only ever saw it once, in a shop which wasn't in the slightest bit interested in having it , but sadly I was a cash strapped student who had just blown what little I had left on a second mandolin... That book correctly noted sig changes, and even had the voicings for harmony 12string parts on some tunes. I wish I'd bought it!

HTH
DSP

I see. We'll, anyway, I still can use Genesis tunes as dictation material then

Thanks again for your answers.

Regards,
{Z}