Volume level on studio monitors (monitor owners please help)

[fgimian]

Hey Bert, thanks for the link.

I just want to be sure that I'm not losing quality. The main reason the Behringer mixer works for me is because I have the cabling and it won't cost me anything to buy something else lol .. but I obviously want to make the most of my setup.

Thanks again for all your help

Cheers
Fots

[z15]

there may be bigger differences in things like transient response / stereo imaging, harmonic distortion, etc i'd imagine. plus i'm sure that if you get the m-patch2 or something similar, using the unbalanced inputs for the rd600 wouldn't matter at all (unless you're running really long cables in a bad environment).

be warned though, you shouldn't use the whole range for the knob with any potentiometer-based passive attenuator, since when they're close to minimum, the channel balance starts to go around. that's a "known issue" with stereo pots, their channel tracking isn't good in the other extreme. as an example, i get tight channel tracking with m-patch to around -60dB, and after that it gets bad. this is usually no problem since you can set the maximum level from the monitors or audio interface so you can use only the part of the pot that has accurate tracking.

i think c-control is active like big knob, so in theory it might color the sound... but i remember someone said in a recent thread that they had chosen c-control in their studio based on tests, and that it didn't do anything nasty to the sound, but i can't confirm this since i haven't tried it. ditto with big knob, but i've heard the same as you - that it doesn't sound too flattering.

bottom line is of course, that you should trust your ears no matter what gear you use. just do the listening tests thoroughly so you are sure that you can't hear a difference between the signal passing thru the mixer and the straight wire. the differences may be more subtle than you're expecting or they may be big but you don't just take notice of them. or there may be practically no audible difference at all, of course.

i just have a prejudice against almost all behringer products and tend to think there must be SOMETHING wrong with them since they're chinese made cheap copies of products from other manufacturers (whether it be prosumer like mackie vs eurodesks and xenyxes or more pro like rme vs ada8000). i know some of their products are really usable (like the aforementioned ada8000's AD/DA conversion, and their midi controllers) but i still don't trust them.

[fgimian]

Definitely some excellent points z15. I think I'll have to get myself a passive attenuator.

Well, what can I say, Behringer sucks. Check out the stereo crosstalk. Also, the frequency response variation is a little more drastic than it seemed

http://www.users.on.net/~djbros/Behring ... arison.htm

Fots

[BertKoor]

May I ask what audio interface you have, soundpalace?

The figures you show there look like they're from a good 16bits card, not from a proper 24bits card. Noise floor of well below -100dB (improvement of over 10dB) should be possible by investing only $100 in a proper soundcard. You're currently not getting the most out of your Adams, with or without that B mixer inbetween

[fgimian]

This is an Echo Layla3G. Maybe it's because I currently have my input / output levels set at -10dbu, when they need to be at +4dbu. I will try again with +4

Fots

[fgimian]

Hmm still not below -100 db.

http://www.users.on.net/~djbros/Behring ... rison2.htm

MAybe it's because I'm using unbalanced cables to test ? I'll see if I can find a balanced cable to try.

Cheers
Fots

[BertKoor]

According to Echo the S/N ratio should be around 113dB, not the 91dB you currently have measured. Difference is larger than just between -10 and +4dB.

Check weather there are some faders in the control panel not set at unity...

[fgimian]

Yeah, that is really strange, the mixer is set to unity on all inputs / outputs. I will try it again with "Adjust playback/recording" unticked.

Cheers
Fots

[fgimian]

Alrighty, with that tick box unticked, I am now down to -104.3 which looks a lot better but still a little short of the target. Are you aware of exactly what that tick box does?

Here are the results for the Echo Gina 24 which was a tiny bit worse than my card...

http://audio.rightmark.org/test/event-g ... 202496.htm

So I think it might be about -104 for my card.

Fots

Edit: I just realised how this thing works, you have to adjust the levels, rerunning the test now, sorry

Edit again: Result with that is -98.4

[fgimian]

I must be doing something wrong...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... /layla.htm

These subjective comments were supported by more objective testing with Rightmark's Audio Analyser (5.4). Loopback tests at 16-bit/44.1kHz gave noise levels of 95.8dB(A), total harmonic distortion (THD) of 0.0011 percent and stereo crosstalk of 98.7dB, all excellent figures. At 24-bit/44.1kHz, these improved further to -110.2dB(A), 0.0008 percent and 114.6dB respectively. Again, these are excellent figures, and the noise and stereo crosstalk readings only dropped by a couple of dB at 24-bit/96kHz. All other things being equal, and all other elements of the audio signal chain being taken due care of, I'd have no concerns about using the Layla 3G for serious audio work.

Edit: OK OK !! I have got it now

For some wierd reason, the WAVE output level is set to 50% in Windows by default. After increased it to full ball, the input and output levels read identical for a signal passed through. I then ran the tool and the volume was calibrated perfectly. After then running the test, I get the following results...

(link to be posted in a few minutes)

Fots

[BertKoor]

I must be doing something wrong...
Fots

Check the whole gain structure... again!

There must be a master volume fader or something you've overlooked in the control panel's mixer of the Layla. All the faders on the console should be put at maximum. You did run the level setting test succesfully?

Also you can test what happens if you use inputs 3/4 (without trim) instead of pair 1/2.

[z15]

drop the sampling frequency to 44/48KHz and try again.

1) you won't need 96KHz for anything, trust me. (no, actually, trust your own ears and not me, but in my experience there's no or negligible difference in sound quality between 48 and 96 with practically all converters i've tried, and good converters sound awesome at 44/48KHz)
2) some measured ratings will most probably be worse at 96KHz than at 44/48

24/48 or 24/44 should be good to test at. and good to use too.

[fgimian]

You are completely correct.

http://www.users.on.net/~djbros/Behring ... Proper.htm

I'm blown away by these specs, this thing only costs a third of the price of an RME Fireface!

The Behringer piece of crap has a HUGE amount of crosstalk. Goodbye gorgeous stereo imaging on the ADAMs

Cheers
Fots

[z15]

yeah, some people (who seem to know what they're talking about and don't have bad ears) have said the sound of the new echo audiofires is equal or better than rme fireface 800 (tested them against each other). while i don't know if layla3g has the same converters and analog stages or not, and statements like that are usually subjective... i've still gotten the impression that the echos are something to go for if you want really good sound for not too much money!

[fgimian]

Yeah, well all the years I was growing up, everyone was raving about Echo and RME interfaces. Echo in particular it seemed.

When I went to purchase, the store also did suggest Motu and RME. I went with the Echo purely for the price and the fact that PCI is supposed to be faster than Firewire and I cared about low latency since I work in the box with no external gear.

So far, I have not regretted my decision. I just hope that Echo come out with a good PCI-e card to replace this PCI one. Hopefully it will interface with the same breakout box so all I'll have to buy is the PCI-e card.

These fellas were very early with Vista drivers which surprised me since they are pretty slow in development when comparing to companies like RME who release a new driver very frequently.

The EMU specs seem to beat my Echo, but sometimes it's hard to tell if they just give you the converter specs or the ACTUAL tested specs of the unit.

Cheers
Fots