where next with software instruments?

[taijiguy]

Collapse of modern civilization ........ back to acoustic instruments only, yay!

not a bad idea ... better for our social life

Yeah, but then we'll have to rely on musicianship instead of using technology and millions of new sounds to cover up the fact that we're not musicians.

[Aural Chaos]

If you honestly think software can just keep getting more efficient on the same hardware, beyond a certain point, you're somewhat mistaken.

That misses the point completely. The hardware is exponentially more powerful every year, yet is still being taxed by the new software....

[whyterabbyt]

And what about people who have spent a lot of money on these vst products?
Hosts that run this new technology of plugins will have to be capable of running older plugins.

you just answered your own question. which had no real relevance to my comments on how VST might be developed, or by whom, in the first place.

[whyterabbyt]

One standard of plugins technology democratically decided by all members in the industry. I've been around a bit and that is almost laughable.
Yes it makes sense but since when did competing businesses in the same industry agree on a 'one standard' view?

You need to 'be around a bit' longer, then.

ECMA
ISO
IEEE

tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of standards, agreed by thousands of companies and organisations.

Try counting the number of industry-standardised buses and ports on your computer for a start.

[thoshu]

back to cpu-efficiency

i'm bouncing and freezing all the time again like in the old vst-days with a pc, i bought new not even three years ago ... .

[koalaboy]

But Track freeze isn't a workaround. It's a solution to let you run really powerful software on a machine that can't cope with doing twice as much work, and then keep the result.

If you honestly think software can just keep getting more efficient on the same hardware, beyond a certain point, you're somewhat mistaken.

Err, yes it is a workaround.
Problem = CPU load is not enough for the software running on a machine.
Solution = Increase CPU speed or use multiple CPU's (Dual, Quad or however many) = fix

Workaround = Bounce audio down to hdd (freeze).

I never mentioned that you should run the same hardware.

No. It's not a workaround. Let me explain this in simple terms.

Track Freeze is a software solution.
More power is a hardware solution.

A new plugin format, or other software innovation isn't going to change most of the performance problems as they're all based around calculating physical 'real world' solutions. Unless you want to change the laws of physics, or come up with a new mathematical solution that is more efficient, you're stuck.

Some optimisation is possible, but not much - look at the 3D rendering world for the same problems. For years, companies like Pixar and Lucasfilm would 'fake' reflections and lighting, games still 'bake' in the lighting into the textures, because the calculations are just too great for the hardware.

You can innovate in a lot of ways in software, but extra performance is generally the lowest return, assuming something is well written in the first place.

[Novata]

One standard of plugins technology democratically decided by all members in the industry. I've been around a bit and that is almost laughable.
Yes it makes sense but since when did competing businesses in the same industry agree on a 'one standard' view?

You need to 'be around a bit' longer, then.

ECMA
ISO
IEEE

tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of standards, agreed by thousands of companies and organisations.

Try counting the number of industry-standardised buses and ports on your computer for a start.

Ok, in some cases companies can make an agreement. SPDIF = Sony, Philips digital interconnect format, but this is not s standard. IEC 60958 type II
is the standard which is based on the AES/EBU standard.
I have not stated that vst is the defined standard of plugin but one of the most popular ones.
AES, EBU, IEEE, ECMA and ISO are all organizations or unions they are not a competing business.

These standards are decided by non profit organizations and unions.

Funnily enough, ISO is actually the International organization for standardization.




I love a good debate

[Novata]

But Track freeze isn't a workaround. It's a solution to let you run really powerful software on a machine that can't cope with doing twice as much work, and then keep the result.

If you honestly think software can just keep getting more efficient on the same hardware, beyond a certain point, you're somewhat mistaken.

Err, yes it is a workaround.
Problem = CPU load is not enough for the software running on a machine.
Solution = Increase CPU speed or use multiple CPU's (Dual, Quad or however many) = fix

Workaround = Bounce audio down to hdd (freeze).

I never mentioned that you should run the same hardware.

No. It's not a workaround. Let me explain this in simple terms.

Track Freeze is a software solution.
More power is a hardware solution.

A new plugin format, or other software innovation isn't going to change most of the performance problems as they're all based around calculating physical 'real world' solutions. Unless you want to change the laws of physics, or come up with a new mathematical solution that is more efficient, you're stuck.

Some optimisation is possible, but not much - look at the 3D rendering world for the same problems. For years, companies like Pixar and Lucasfilm would 'fake' reflections and lighting, games still 'bake' in the lighting into the textures, because the calculations are just too great for the hardware.

You can innovate in a lot of ways in software, but extra performance is generally the lowest return, assuming something is well written in the first place.

Hmm, so disabling the plugin is a fix. ok, if that's not a workaround then please tell me how it is a solution?
The problem is still there. If you want to edit the midi of the instrument you have frozen then you have to unfreeze it. I'm sorry but that to me diverts the artist/producer/composer from his/her workflow. So therefore the problem remains and the process of freezing an instrument is a workaround.
You're saying that freezing the track is a part of the workflow and therefore is a solution, for which I whole heartedly disagree.

[koalaboy]

Hmm, so disabling the plugin is a fix. ok, if that's not a workaround then please tell me how it is a solution?
The problem is still there. If you want to edit the midi of the instrument you have frozen then you have to unfreeze it. I'm sorry but that to me diverts the artist/producer/composer from his/her workflow. So therefore the problem remains and the process of freezing an instrument is a workaround.
You're saying that freezing the track is a part of the workflow and therefore is a solution, for which I whole heartedly disagree.

I'm saying that freezing the track so you can work on others is a solution. Another solution is buying more hardware.

If you honestly need to edit multiple midi tracks at the same time, I'd suggest better hardware or using a proxy instrument with much lower requirements in the draft stages... in much the same way a composer won't normally pull in the full orchestra to play whilst writing in his studio.

A workaround would be sampling/recording the result and tweaking the audio file for changes - the solution to this workaround was track freezing. You may see it as a workaround to you not being able to afford more hardware, and it that situation your wording sort of applies - in the context of VSTs and instruments though it's a solution.

[Lotuzia]

It seems that software instruments are powerful enough now that you can achieve just about any sound you can imagine in very high quality with them. However, the interfaces still mostly mimic traditional synths and samplers and are fairly slow and tedious means of exploring the sound universes of these tools.

Well, there are still synths that exist only in my mind . And for sure in other's people heads.

There are still many unknown sounds/instruments to do with existing synths.

THere is still a lot of music to do with existing instruments and synths.

Its only the dawning of synths. We will see different and musically usefull new things in the future.

And this will eventually be related to the UI as well, you're right. (As UI are meant to reflect what's in the box)

LtZ

[kuniklo]

Sure there are things that could be improved in midi, vst etc and cpu efficiency, but I think the real innovation is going to happen in interfaces. In many respects synth interfaces haven't really changed since the original Moogs. I'm still dealing directly with fundamental parameters like filter cutoff or oscillator pitch when I program synths today.

I'd really like to see two things happen simultaneously - breaking down the barrier between sound design and performance and letting designers work with more meta-level, subjective qualities of sound. Instead of a bunch of knobs why not a palette of colors to blend together, or blocks to stack on each other, or a ship to fly around a landscape or balls to throw at different targets etc? A lot of really novel approaches will turn out to be dead ends but I have a strong hunch there could be some very interesting new ways of approaching these questions. If you look at the kind of assignments that are usually made to macro controls in synths like Zebra or Massive or the easy page in FM8 you'll see an inkling of this kind of sensibility. Instead of dealing with the lower-level sound parameters you manipulate things like brightness, harmonics, color, etc. With all the cpu under the hood today the computer could do a lot of work of eliminating dead ends ahead of time. In some ways it's like the protein folding problem and maybe some of that kind of thinking could be applied here.

[UltraJv]

There are many innovative interfaces you can currently buy. They are for the brave and take time to master. Thats the issue, people are lazy, sometimes even a keyboard is too much effort. As for new types of synthesis - Its actually slowed down as most of it has been done or dosnt offer any new sounds. The future of software is as always, more of the same.

[kuniklo]

There are many innovative interfaces you can currently buy. They are for the brave and take time to master.

What would you consider truly innovative interfaces? The only one I can think of off hand is Metasynth.

As for new *types* of synthesis, I don't think we need those nearly as much as we need ways to get more out of the familiar ones.

[aMUSEd]

Audiomulch's metasurface is a good example of an innovative interface

[Plug]

One standard of plugins technology democratically decided by all members in the industry. I've been around a bit and that is almost laughable.
Yes it makes sense but since when did competing businesses in the same industry agree on a 'one standard' view?

You need to 'be around a bit' longer, then.

ECMA
ISO
IEEE

tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of standards, agreed by thousands of companies and organisations.

Try counting the number of industry-standardised buses and ports on your computer for a start.

Ok, in some cases companies can make an agreement. SPDIF = Sony, Philips digital interconnect format, but this is not s standard. IEC 60958 type II
is the standard which is based on the AES/EBU standard.
I have not stated that vst is the defined standard of plugin but one of the most popular ones.
AES, EBU, IEEE, ECMA and ISO are all organizations or unions they are not a competing business.

These standards are decided by non profit organizations and unions.

Funnily enough, ISO is actually the International organization for standardization.




I love a good debate

Unless i'm mistaken, weren't the CD and DVD standards devised by a collective of commercial organisations? I can't think of the names, but i'm certain this is the case.

Anyway regardless of this - a new midi standard would really benefit from collaboration from all corners of the industry. I really look forward to this kind of stuff!

On the evolution of plugins - i think that the sooner we escape the confines of the traditional hardware interface the better.

Fabfilter's volcano interface is a giant leap forward, it's a very visual interface with drag and drop features, and it cleverly 'hides' stuff that you're not using. I hope more companies come up with ideas like this!