KVR Audio

eduardo_b · Post by **eduardo_b** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:52 am

annode wrote:Personally I think your nuts... asking for a specific emulation vst of the echoplex, which is really an old piece of design junk,and has no real artistic or esthetic sound value over freeware delays with similar features.
Hell, any long delay-line type delay vst will get you there.(with the right few features)

It is interesting what each of us becomes fixated on. Not always logical, and we often reach these points for reasons that may be imaginary or at least psychoacoustic. It just seems like it will make all the difference, when in fact there are, as you note, non-emulations that are likely as good and often better. It's why there are wood-like panels on VA emulations. Feel the warmth.

jkleban · Post by **jkleban** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:10 am

Annode,

I appreciate your suggestion of using Augustic Loop.

Thanks,
Jim

cactuseskimo · Post by **cactuseskimo** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:56 am

Holy crap, don't blow that kind of money on echoboy. If you don't want to go freeware, then pick up a copy of PODfarm. Not only do you get like 10 different delay models (that are really good), you also get a plethora of other high quality effects, and then the amp modeling to boot. Line 6 makes really nice effects. I don't think you can go wrong with their selection of delays. Seems like a no-brainer.

annode · Post by **annode** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:05 am

I opoligize. Not trying to be an ass, just a little pepper in the stew.
One thing I'll do is use a vst chaining device,(chainer),and stack my own vst design that acts as one function such as an echoplex for example.
That's what echoboy is,in essence. After you design something you save it as an .fxp file.(in my case)
Chainer for example, or maybe eXT will act as a VST or VSTi and will insert as an instrument or in this case,an effect.

as far as chainer and cubase sx,automating with chainer could be a prob. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough. Not sure about eXT.

You could chain together a series of freeware vst to accomplish your own emulations.
Tape saturation,tube warmth, gain, distortion, what have you, and call it up like a plugin, and the .fxp like it's preset patch.

waiting man · Post by **waiting man** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:07 am

anyway both G.S.I.'s and ArcDev's spaceecho emulations offer tape-warble phasing.
(the former being a cheapissimo piece of art, the latter an incredible freebie

)

susiwong · Post by **susiwong** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:36 am

jkleban wrote:Thanks guys for the input and ideas. I downloaded the demo of Soundtoys (including Echoboy) and I didn't know that they released the VST version.

I put ECHOBOY on a track I am working on that has an ARP PRO SOLOIST synth line that I needed the ECHOPLEX. I had the UAD2 Roland Space Echo and it sounded ok.

The ECHOBOY made the track come alive and it sits in the mix perfectly.

Thanks... now to find a good deal on the VST Soundtoy Native Bundle. I saw it in a many places for $395 but that's just a bit steep for this... I really could use a 25% off deal (off the 395).

Let me know if you know of anywhere I might get this type of deal. In the meantime, I have it for the next 15 days and it really sounds authentic for the echoplex.

Thanks,
Jim

Not 25% off, but @ JRR you can get 10% off at least, and it's downloadable which, depending on your location, might be an advantage, too.

If other quality delays are an option let me recommend UA's Cooper and PSPs Lexicon PSP42, both have that elusive "mojo factor" which you describe as "alive" imho.
The Cooper additionaly can be a stellar stereo enhancer / doubler which was the reason for the hardware becoming a studio legend.
Both are not Echoplexes though.

Ymmv,
susiwong

jkleban · Post by **jkleban** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:01 am

Susiwong,

I have the COOPER and it is magical. To that point, isn't all the UAD2 stuff amazing?

I was using the UAD2 Roland Space Echo for this (it sounds good) but when I put the ECHOBOY on the same instrument, that was IT, not close but SPOT ON.

Yes, I saw that I can D/L this at JRR (and get 10% off) but sure we like a deeper discount. I thought about buying EB standalone but for another $100 bucks or so, might as well get the entire bundle. Plus, I am not sure the standalone would be VST (probably is) but I couldn't find any DOC that said it was VST. So, maybe I might just go this approach and forego the other plugs in the bundle.

Jim

susiwong · Post by **susiwong** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:09 am

Unfortunately the standalone is ProFools only.
I sure would also buy Echoboy standalone native at a reasonable price, 300$ includes the insane ProFools bonus.

Cheers,
susiwong

states · Post by **states** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:37 am

+1,000 for the GSi emu's!

annode · Post by **annode** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:43 pm

waiting man wrote:anyway both G.S.I.'s and ArcDev's spaceecho emulations offer tape-warble phasing.
(the former being a cheapissimo piece of art, the latter an incredible freebie )

Hi waiting man. (not aiming this at you waiting man, just wrote this rant for sake of controvercy. :& )
Wanted to throw back an "anyway" concerning the value and reproduction of emu authenticity...let's take the GSI emu into account.
The GSI wow and flutter is questionably un-noticable IMO

I have a Roland hard-digital emulation of their own 201 space echo.
Roland didn't seem to find it necessary to only write in the parameters from the original tape unit. Nor did they see a need to add noise/hum so forth. I agree.
They DID write in 2 parameters that made the old worn original have the appeal it does today...wow and flutter "rate" and "depth"..not to mention a tape distortion parameter.

Listen to a clip from a track of mine where I use the 201 effect within the Roland SP-808.Listen to the wavering layer in the back and notice how when it begins to go into a feedback loop, the wow cancels it and it recovers.
http://home.comcast.net/~newdabranck/mu ... e.echo.mp3

I guess i'm asking if the GSI or arc dev emu actually can do this.I doubt it.
The other thing...as for writing an emu JUST as it was, without considertion for what it is that actually accounts for it's classic-ness, if you will, is a grand oversite in my opinion.Hum and noise does NOT add to it's appeal..also IMO.

Here's what parameters Roland wrote into their own emu;

So there it is. Sorry if i'm too controversial.

minx · Post by **minx** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:25 pm

VirSyn Vtape has VTape Delay thats has flutter and is a very capable delay

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:46 pm

minx wrote:VirSyn Vtape has VTape Delay thats has flutter and is a very capable delay

I did like the VirSyn delay (I'm a bit of a delay whore). I didn't end up buying it because I found it a little expensive for what it did. Maybe worth it, like the Soundtoys, but I always ask myself, "How much will I use this?" It's especially hard to ask when I have some very capable effects processors. If VirSyn sold their tape delay for $49 and if Soundtoys released their bundle for $199 I bet I'd own them both. I think devs should start thinking about selling cheaper non-commercial licenses for those of us who love to play with the toys but don't use them in a business situation.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:00 pm

eduardo_b wrote:
annode wrote:Personally I think your nuts... asking for a specific emulation vst of the echoplex, which is really an old piece of design junk,and has no real artistic or esthetic sound value over freeware delays with similar features.
Hell, any long delay-line type delay vst will get you there.(with the right few features)
It is interesting what each of us becomes fixated on. Not always logical, and we often reach these points for reasons that may be imaginary or at least psychoacoustic. It just seems like it will make all the difference, when in fact there are, as you note, non-emulations that are likely as good and often better. It's why there are wood-like panels on VA emulations. Feel the warmth.

It's not just "imaginary" (though there is a fairly high degree of that) but also something in a lot of us that yearns for the beauty of imperfection. Technology's given us the possibility of a near perfect delay. Often that's great, and exactly what's needed, but then we times when we want the beauty of things falling apart. I forgot who's got this in their signature, but that saying "...high fidelity and better sounding aren't the same thing..." is often true. One of my favorite tricks is to put something obviously lo-fi next to something very modern and hi-fi sounding.

annode · Post by **annode** » Wed May 13, 2009 3:58 am

zerocrossing sez;

I forgot who's got this in their signature, but that saying "...high fidelity and better sounding aren't the same thing..." is often true. One of my favorite tricks is to put something obviously lo-fi next to something very modern and hi-fi sounding.

Along those same lines, a quick diversion;
The recording recently out - Taj Mahal-Maestro...firstly has got to be the most ingenius engineering job 'i've heard in many yrs!
The engineer(s) create a few emulations of recorded instruments as they sound on the original recordings. For example a '50s drum trap that drives the compressor into a collaped distortion. A definite comp-smash sorta sound typical of the rock and roll '50's.(clip)
http://home.comcast.net/~newdabranck/mu ... aestro.mp3

So yeah,like waiting man said,in so many words above concerning the purest approach to an emulation, as if an art piece.

Referencing on what zerocrossing sez; having a '50s drum compression smash also on a track with hard panned mono instruments as from the mid '60s is a cool mix. Or mixing lo-fi mono sig to center, but also 2 other sigs hard panned mono w/verb, then a center mono e-piano w/velocity controlled verb spread. So it's like a modern effect wrapped in lo-tech. Very imaginative to mix trash in a sound paradise.

waiting man · Post by **waiting man** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:01 am

[quote="annode"]..cut..[quote]
please annode, be controversial

as an ex-Roland user I've quite seen how they approach emuing, even they're own older stuff. obviously I can't talk about every single piece of gear..plus I trust any fan or detractor far more than the company itself or their manuals.

I don't see noise as a winning feature of gsi's echo (nor the arcdev's) so I don't why you're pickin' it. I just play stuff through it and enjoy the movement. the phase effect is clear to me, specially with synths and specially because it does NEVER sound exactly the same, and that's no hiss-trick or just bare parameters-drifting.

now, I never tried the Roland emu you're mentioning (is it the twin pedal?)
and I'm not able to hear your clip atm, so I'm forced to leave the controversy to someone else.

haven't tried the UAD either, just the line6 algo and it's gimmicky and oversimplified.

will download, listen and treasure, thanx. I'm not going to compare or anything alse as I should have a source file, check your recording conditions, settings, blabla. probably you should question Guido, if you're looking for a soft substitution for your hard emu. he's really into nailing every single aspect (his dedition to his VB is the clearest example), so I guess he'd appreciate any opinion.

Echoplex VST