Ask me anything Music Theory and I'll answer

[echomusic]

OK. So before I get into it, at what point did the author leave off before you were stuck?
...
They are all unique because of their intervals. Once you know them then stressing one over the other is a matter of preference.

Prior to mentioning this harmonic chromatic scale, this book completely and comprehensively detailed the modes, their intervals, their tendencies, etc(as far as I can tell). I've also spent a day experimenting with each of these modes, and practicing playing their scales on a few different tonics.

This harmonic chromatic scale is the very last subject touched on in this section of the book before the author advances to the next, unrelated section.

I think I follow you. The harmonic chromatic scale is like the double negative in math. Instead of saying it's a negative negative just say it's positive, meaning it's the same ascending and descending. When you play a harmonic chromatic in any mode it's the same up and down using the same intervals IN the key that it's in but with applied intervals.

[susiwong]

Hi Dexter,
thanks for your kind offer !

There is a little thing I've been wondering about for ages, though there possibly might not be a theoretical answer at all, currently I go by gut feeling / trial & error mostly.

Typical scenario :
Twin lead guitars, southern rock / country style
The main melody is given, the melody for the 2nd guitar is supposed to live approximately a 3rd higher (obviously the resulting intervals can be major or minor 3rds, or even 4ths when using the genre typical 6 note scale, e.g. C - D - E - F - G - A - C, omitting the 7th).
How to arrive at a generic solution for scale notes is clear, but is there any theory about how to harmonize non-scale passing notes ?

Obviously music is more than applying rigid rules, but knowing the rules is an advantage for sure.
In many cases a completely independent 2nd part will sound more musical anyway, but still, what gives ?

Thanks again,
susiwong

[MOK19]

I'm still confused.
I think I understand what you're saying there, in that it's another way of going about a chromatic scale such that you don't need to play it differently going down...? The interval bit doesn't quite compute though. But does it have some purpose when dealing with different modes? Or is it simply a piece of trivia?

This book went through quite a bit of text extolling it's virtues - "When you have learned the harmonic form of the chromatic scale, the process of writing music thus gets that much simpler," etc. With stuff like that, and prior excerpts I've typed up in this thread, it makes me think I'm missing something or have something wrong. Is there a technique of utilizing this particular scale for something, somehow? Or is it a technique common with the 'normal' chromatic scale which I somehow missed? I feel there must be something to this, else going over this topic so deep into the book(and the page-and-a-half dedicated to it) would be absolutely redundant.

I did a wikipedia check, and this section compares it and a normal chromatic scale. Handy, but I don't see any answers there.

[echomusic]

Hi Dexter,
thanks for your kind offer !

There is a little thing I've been wondering about for ages, though there possibly might not be a theoretical answer at all, currently I go by gut feeling / trial & error mostly.

Typical scenario :
Twin lead guitars, southern rock / country style
The main melody is given, the melody for the 2nd guitar is supposed to live approximately a 3rd higher (obviously the resulting intervals can be major or minor 3rds, or even 4ths when using the genre typical 6 note scale, e.g. C - D - E - F - G - A - C, omitting the 7th).
How to arrive at a generic solution for scale notes is clear, but is there any theory about how to harmonize non-scale passing notes ?

Obviously music is more than applying rigid rules, but knowing the rules is an advantage for sure.
In many cases a completely independent 2nd part will sound more musical anyway, but still, what gives ?

Thanks again,
susiwong

You're right on both accounts. It is more than applying the rules and yes, knowing them is an advantage. You are actually well on your way to being a pro at it, because that is what it takes. Think of the theory as building blocks. Try matching the lead in key then stepping it up 3rds, 5ths, etc. Once you get the rhythm down, it's only a matter of imagination and practice to getting derivative parts. The trial and error will go away soon enough if you keep doing what you're doing. Also, you may want to write down the music. Ever notice that repeat performances often are the same, or at least very close? That's because they have a foundation laid out. Live isn't always spontaneous. Learn to play by ear also instead of just relying on gut feeling. You'll find that you will be a MUCH stronger performer.

[echomusic]

I'm still confused.
I think I understand what you're saying there, in that it's another way of going about a chromatic scale such that you don't need to play it differently going down...? The interval bit doesn't quite compute though. But does it have some purpose when dealing with different modes? Or is it simply a piece of trivia?

This book went through quite a bit of text extolling it's virtues - "When you have learned the harmonic form of the chromatic scale, the process of writing music thus gets that much simpler," etc. With stuff like that, and prior excerpts I've typed up in this thread, it makes me think I'm missing something or have something wrong. Is there a technique of utilizing this particular scale for something, somehow? Or is it a technique common with the 'normal' chromatic scale which I somehow missed? I feel there must be something to this, else going over this topic so deep into the book(and the page-and-a-half dedicated to it) would be absolutely redundant.

I did a wikipedia check, and this section compares it and a normal chromatic scale. Handy, but I don't see any answers there.

Right. I think the author over explained it. The intervals define the progression and as a result, modes of chromatics are altered by the intervals. When you refer specifically to a harmonic chromatic, the ascending and descending are exactly the same.

That's why I called it a double negative. Up is the same as down.

[MOK19]

Does it serve a practical function?

[echomusic]

Does it serve a practical function?

Absolutely! You'll see a lot of progressions in more advanced compositions (sheet music), but you'll more often than not hear it played in blues and classical.

[susiwong]

You're right on both accounts. It is more than applying the rules and yes, knowing them is an advantage. You are actually well on your way to being a pro at it, because that is what it takes. Think of the theory as building blocks. Try matching the lead in key then stepping it up 3rds, 5ths, etc. Once you get the rhythm down, it's only a matter of imagination and practice to getting derivative parts. The trial and error will go away soon enough if you keep doing what you're doing. Also, you may want to write down the music. Ever notice that repeat performances often are the same, or at least very close? That's because they have a foundation laid out. Live isn't always spontaneous. Learn to play by ear also instead of just relying on gut feeling. You'll find that you will be a MUCH stronger performer.

Hi Dexter,
thanks for your quick reply !
Sure, I'm perfectly able to improvise by ear in genres I'm familiar with, including the occasional "ouch" moments most people have to varying degrees.
Gut feeling referred to harmonizing those passing notes I mentioned.
Writing/reading notation is not one of my stronger points, granted, though I know exactly what notes I'm playing and have an intermediate understanding of theory as far as my favourite styles are concerned (not really in advanced jazz/classical, admitted).
Thanks again,
susiwong

[TristezaOrange]

This thread is great. I've been using the super locrian without even knowing it.

[iamdegree]

What books would you recommend for a beginner with basic knowledge trying to build more fundamentals of music theory?

[echomusic]

What books would you recommend for a beginner with basic knowledge trying to build more fundamentals of music theory?

Well, if you read my offer, just ask any questions you have and you'll receive a free copy of the one I'm working on now.

message me and I'll send you a free download link to my current book, Music for the Simple Man. It is biased, however, I am partial to my book because I wrote it the same way I teach. I know a lot now, but it took schooling, years of practice, private tutoring, etc to get where I am now. My book is a nut and bolts guide from basic theory to introduction to advanced theory.

I started this thread as a way to get research done for the second edition. Like I said I didn't want to do another music theory book like the others out there. I wanted to specifically address questions that people actually have about practical use and help get them past sticky points in music theory. If I can do that, then I consider it a great success and I can maybe help someone bypass the years of money and effort that I had to go through.

So yeah, message me and I'll send you a link to get the current book free.

[dacaumodo]

Well I don't know if that's specific enough but I've been thinking a lot about modulation in composition, as in changing scales within a song. I write mostly pop music (in its funk and soul variants). When I modulate I tend to go "by the ear" but it's often a hit and miss affair.

What would you say are the best ways and directions for modulation in the pop genre? And how to make it "seamless"? Sting is a master of the genre for instance IMO.

How to modulate from a I IV V sequence for instance, and back?

I'm especially interested in modulations that sound acceptable in pop, i.e. not too "jazzy".


I vaguely grasp it may have something to do with the circles of fifths and/or fourths but I'm still a little hazy about it.

Anyway it's very generous of you to be here and offer help.

vim

[ThomasKoot]

I've recently learnt about a few "out of key" chords I can use to spice up my major scale chord sequences. These being ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III. I was wondering if you could explain to me why these sound "right", and do you know of any other chords that I can add to my major scale toolbox?

Sorry to butt in... just thought I'd throw in my 2¢:

Those chords work when played over the tonic because they outline various chord extensions to the tonic triad. The notes of the ♭VII triad, for example, are also the 7th, 9th, and 11th of the tonic, outlining a 7 9 sus chord. In the case of the ♭III triad played over the tonic triad, you'd form a 7 #9 chord; and the ♭VI triad over the tonic triad would form a #9 ♭13.

This explanation is really jazz oriented, but these chords work really well in pop music as well. The ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III are so called 'moll-dur' chords. If you're for example using a C major chord progression, you can add chords from the C minor (which in turn is equivalent to Eb major) progression to spice things up a little. Borrowing chords from the minor scale progression is called moll-dur, the other way around is called dur-moll, which is used less. This technique is quite often used in popular music. One of the many examples: the bridge of bryan adams "everything I do I do it for you" has the really disctinctive moll dur sound.

[SparkySpark]

If you're for example using a C major chord progression, you can add chords from the C minor (which in turn is equivalent to Eb major) progression to spice things up a little. Borrowing chords from the minor scale progression is called moll-dur, the other way around is called dur-moll, which is used less. This technique is quite often used in popular music. One of the many examples: the bridge of bryan adams "everything I do I do it for you" has the really disctinctive moll dur sound.

I had no idea! Thank for the tip!

/SparkySpark

[SparkySpark]

Hi Echomusic,

What a great idea! I read through the thread and have one question regarding the Dorian, Lydian, etc scales. The Dorian scale (pianowise) is (as far as I recollect from my music theory classes) simply the white keys, but starting from D instead of A (for A minor) or C (for C Major). So far so good. But what would the I-IV-V chords be in Dorian?

Music theory-wise, would I start with D-F#-A, G-B-D, and A-C#-E and pretend that nothing's funky is going on, or should I stick to the true scale and instead use D-F-A, G-B-D, and A-C-E? In Dorian, this will sound good (and I have composed a song using these chords with D as the root), but what about say the scale starting on B (or "H")? Would such a chord progression become B-D-F, E-G-B, F-A-C?

(I realise this question might be a bit "academic", as these scales are older than the triad scheme, so perhaps not all of the scales actually have a triad-ish way of functioning.)

Warm regards from Sweden,

SparkySpark