Problem With Scales in music theory

[unpeople]

The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.

WHY? Why is that better than sticking to a key until you have internalized interval relastionships? I disagree.

hosseinz started this thread by asking how someone would go about learning lots of different kinds of scales in all of the keys. Sticking to one key doesn't answer the question.

Master improvisers in eg., India's Hindustani or Karnatak music have 'their tonic'. Period. A sitar tends to have D as a tonic. There is no 'key of Eb' for that axe.

That's all well and good, but hosseinz was asking about Blues and Bebop scales, and there are very few jazz sitar players, so I doubt that my advice will be scuttled by the out-of-key drone of sympathetic strings. Many instruments have certain keys where the scale fingerings are easiest — like C major on a piano, or B♭ on a trumpet — but I consider it a bad habit to favor playing in one key over another. By definition, that means that your other keys are weaker, and that's no good, particularly if you're playing jazz.

Still, this is a beginner - it says so in VERY LARGE TYPE. I don't get any sense that the OP has any clue what these scales mean. Or has any particular affinity for "bebop" at this point. The question I see is "how to learn to do everything I've ever heard of all at once."

It's a whole lot of useless information, umpteen exotic scale types in every key. It's trying to sprint as if a tiptop athelete before learning to crawl.

My WHY really is, "why is trying to run before crawling utterly de riqeur". Learn how to get something musical out of a couple keys, one key, LOOK AT INTERVALS.

And what "jazz", in the Original Post? Hendrix? Satch? Hendrix never ran scales. Hendrix was a blues player, who at times went into MODAL playing, Hindustani influence, and he LOVED HIM SOME E. So don't tell me what I read is what you read. & AFAIK Hendrix transposed by position on the fretboard. I don't see or hear that he had to know a single thing according to your 'received as gospel' approach. I've seen him try to improvise in a pseudo-classical style, and he didn't appear to know his way around keys/formulaic changes so well. By ear, copping off records. Do you think he came up with Little Wing by roman numerals? And then applied scale theory? Shit.

When someone takes "scales" "in every key" as a de rigeur basis for study, so so so often s/he runs scales as a way around really hearing it. It's received 'wisdom' that IME is rather ill-advised. Learn music with your ear. Which in my vast experience is better done via my approach than what appears to be yours.

Dude [on edit: Dudette], lighten up. I answered a specific question with advice that I know works, because it worked for me. Why don't you post your own advice that answers the poster's question, rather than complaining that the question is wrong, and crapping all over my suggestions?

And for the record, despite the boast about your "vast experience," my approach works perfectly well. I play more than a dozen different instruments, many of them professionally, and all but one I taught myself. With the exception of the didgeridoo and drums, I mastered them all by first learning to play all of my scales in every key. I can also sight-transpose into any key, because at this point, I hear and think in scale degree numbers, which makes it trivial to move between keys. My method is not definitive (as I stated in my original post), but I'm proof that it works well.

[tapper mike]

You have fallen into the trap.
Jancivle is a dudette. She is highly opinionated about everything she types.

[aquar]

You have fallen into the trap.
Jancivle is a dudette. She is highly opinionated about everything she types.

If she didn't know her stuff it would be a trap.

[seacouch]

Dude [on edit: Dudette], lighten up.

Great advice!

[trimph1]

The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.

WHY? Why is that better than sticking to a key until you have internalized interval relastionships? I disagree.

hosseinz started this thread by asking how someone would go about learning lots of different kinds of scales in all of the keys. Sticking to one key doesn't answer the question.

Master improvisers in eg., India's Hindustani or Karnatak music have 'their tonic'. Period. A sitar tends to have D as a tonic. There is no 'key of Eb' for that axe.

That's all well and good, but hosseinz was asking about Blues and Bebop scales, and there are very few jazz sitar players, so I doubt that my advice will be scuttled by the out-of-key drone of sympathetic strings. Many instruments have certain keys where the scale fingerings are easiest — like C major on a piano, or B♭ on a trumpet — but I consider it a bad habit to favor playing in one key over another. By definition, that means that your other keys are weaker, and that's no good, particularly if you're playing jazz.

Still, this is a beginner - it says so in VERY LARGE TYPE. I don't get any sense that the OP has any clue what these scales mean. Or has any particular affinity for "bebop" at this point. The question I see is "how to learn to do everything I've ever heard of all at once."

It's a whole lot of useless information, umpteen exotic scale types in every key. It's trying to sprint as if a tiptop athelete before learning to crawl.

My WHY really is, "why is trying to run before crawling utterly de riqeur". Learn how to get something musical out of a couple keys, one key, LOOK AT INTERVALS.

And what "jazz", in the Original Post? Hendrix? Satch? Hendrix never ran scales. Hendrix was a blues player, who at times went into MODAL playing, Hindustani influence, and he LOVED HIM SOME E. So don't tell me what I read is what you read. & AFAIK Hendrix transposed by position on the fretboard. I don't see or hear that he had to know a single thing according to your 'received as gospel' approach. I've seen him try to improvise in a pseudo-classical style, and he didn't appear to know his way around keys/formulaic changes so well. By ear, copping off records. Do you think he came up with Little Wing by roman numerals? And then applied scale theory? Shit.

When someone takes "scales" "in every key" as a de rigeur basis for study, so so so often s/he runs scales as a way around really hearing it. It's received 'wisdom' that IME is rather ill-advised. Learn music with your ear. Which in my vast experience is better done via my approach than what appears to be yours.

Dude [on edit: Dudette], lighten up. I answered a specific question with advice that I know works, because it worked for me. Why don't you post your own advice that answers the poster's question, rather than complaining that the question is wrong, and crapping all over my suggestions?

And for the record, despite the boast about your "vast experience," my approach works perfectly well. I play more than a dozen different instruments, many of them professionally, and all but one I taught myself. With the exception of the didgeridoo and drums, I mastered them all by first learning to play all of my scales in every key. I can also sight-transpose into any key, because at this point, I hear and think in scale degree numbers, which makes it trivial to move between keys. My method is not definitive (as I stated in my original post), but I'm proof that it works well.

I keep thinking in terms of intervals--why? Because it allows me to work around the question of chords and scales--which both tend to muck me up--so I'm not going to go either/or in my case.

To this little fellow I be in the middle doing both/and----

[VoodooDoctor]

"It's easier than calculus:-) And more fun too!"

heheh. i did better in calculus then i do at scales. (You might if you have not already try to take some piano classes to help get them into my head. - so you have your ears to help you here the intervals instead of just thinking about them)

[Tony Ostinato]

transcribing can help. if you like jimi hendrix then transcribe some of his stuff. the more you do the easier it gets till its fun.


and while self taught is a wonderful thing i am a bit leery about self graded, we seem to have a lot of people giving themselves A+'s all the time.

[jancivil]

And for the record, despite the boast about your "vast experience," my approach works perfectly well. I play more than a dozen different instruments, many of them professionally, and all but one I taught myself. With the exception of the didgeridoo and drums, I mastered them all by first learning to play all of my scales in every key. I can also sight-transpose into any key, because at this point, I hear and think in scale degree numbers, which makes it trivial to move between keys. My method is not definitive (as I stated in my original post), but I'm proof that it works well.

the thing is you insisted on some 'tired and truistic blah blah which IMNSHO took the OP in the wrong direction exactly.

and I Quote: The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.

When they were trying to find some hendrix on a fretboard.

&, your rejoinder to my boast is to say

*lighten up*
which goes something like this:
And for the record, despite the boast about your "vast experience," my approach works perfectly well.
Dozen different instruments
sight-transpose into any key

and a whole lotta stuff they teach every intrumental mechanic who manages to stay in music school to do.

I'm proof that it works well. Yeah, that's showing me, huh.

I never opined about what worked well for you, only that that opinion, IMNSHO, didn't fit the OP/question.
I used to teach for a living. All sorts of people. Little kids, older people who wanted to learn this or that other thing, would-be punk rockers... you-name-it.

Dogma didn't cut it, and can be a crutch.

[pc999]

How Can I(or musicians) learn all of these scales,remember them and play or improvise in the music?
Is musicians such as Joe Satriani and Jimi Hendrix remember and learned all of these scale?
Please help me I AM CONFUSED.

Why do you want to learn all of those stuff?

I mean it is nice to know everything but the guys that usualy do that it is because they need to, and spend many hours every day for many years to do that (think in Berklee students).



Manys of the others only learn what they want, eg, blues and the like if they like blus, some exotic ones if they like the sound...



You dont need to know all of that to have fun and much less to do great music. You just need if you want to have a career in music where you need all of that or if you want to use all of those sounds.



Anyway try to get a nice method book on scales of Jazz and other styles, follow it and only advance when you starting to get bored with that chapter (even if it isnt already right).

I didnt learned even 1/3 of all of that but what I did learned it was this why.

Hope it helps.

[psenior]

I haven't read too much of the other posts on this thread. Seems like there's some debate going on. I will share with you my answer to your question.

When I was a beginner, I had to suck it up and memorize all those scales you mentioned. Later on, I was exposed to Barry Harris' 6th-diminished scales. These scales encompass all those other scales you mentioned, so now, instead of thinking about all those scales you mentioned, I just think about and play two scales the vast majority of the time. The two scales are called major 6th-diminished and minor 6th-diminished.

Major 6th-diminished is an easy scale to construct on the fly. The notes consist of a major 6th chord followed by a diminished 7th chord located a half step below the major 6th chord. That's all it is. For example, C major 6th is C E G A and B diminished 7th is B D F Ab. So, that gives us C D E F G A Ab B. If you think about it, this scale contains all the notes and then some of several of the scales you mentioned, such as C major (C D E F G A B), C major pentatonic (C D E G A), A natural minor (A B C D E F G) and A minor pentatonic (A C D E G).

Minor 6th-diminished is also very easy. It's a minor 6th followed by the diminished 7th a half step below. So, C minor 6th is C Eb G A and B diminished 7th is B D F Ab, which gives us C D Eb F G A Ab B. This scale includes all the notes for C melodic minor (C D Eb F G A B) and C harmonic minor (C D Eb F G Ab B).

Does this make sense to you? If you understand this, you're well on your way to mastering music theory.

[pc999]

Does this make sense to you? If you understand this, you're well on your way to mastering music theory.

Thats is pretty cool, thanks.

Although even I do think I am still a long way before mastering anything,

[kek]

I suggest not to learn all those scales, but to think about harmonies.

The advice to learn the major scale first is correct because every harmonic relationship can be related to them. The major/minor scales have been established because they are most suited to express a certain key in traditional tonal music, and even if you wanted to play something atonal you could use this knowledge to avoid tonal phrases.

If you play some chord/melody progression which hints at c-major and you add notes like f# or bflat, you could think of it as using the "blues scale", but it would be more useful to think of these notes as being related to another major key (g and f respectively) or to look at the interval they form with the current fundamental note c, because you can derive their character from that.

[rverne10]

hello.

My question is:
How Can I(or musicians) learn all of these scales,remember them and play or improvise in the music?
Is musicians such as Joe Satriani and Jimi Hendrix remember and learned all of these scale?
Please help me I AM CONFUSED.

Do you play an instrument?
Get the beginning books for scales and learn just one scale.
C major-up and down as far on your instrument as you can.
Memorize it and live with it.
Move to F major, Bb major, Eb major, Ab major, Db major. Gb major. Learn all of these, one at a time until they are part of your memorized repetoire.
Go back to C major, and move up the sharp side of things.
Then move to the melodic minor, again One At At time.