Zen

[tony tony chopper]

A long time ago I suggested Image-Line that we needed this, that there was no point in a proprietary preset browser, because users aren't just using our own plugins, and they want ALL of what they have to be included in a search. And that since categorizing a database took time, its database had to be online & shared by everyone. They weren't interested so I'm glad you're doing it.
Only big difference is that for mine I didn't want to actually store presets, but their IDs. Reason is that
-presets can be pretty big to huge for soundbanks
-presets may be commercial, copyrighted, not legally sharable
So the user would receive a database of preset IDs (filename, checksum, sub-file preset #.. followed by several NI-like criterias), & the database tool would then scan the user's HD to find which of the presets included in the database he owns. The database could then show all presets or only those he owns, & presets IDs would have links to where to find the (concrete) presets.

While initially reluctant, if the (open source, users would be able to sort their presets & upload the IDs) database had become big enough, plugin & preset/sample banks makers themselves would probably be interested in uploading their own official lists of presets. And hosts would like to embed such a database. & such a project would end up comercially viable through an online store reselling presets/banks, ala Steam, using micropayment, & would also allow little independent to sale or share presets.

So listing real preset files instead of pointing to them is restricting IMHO.
In short: I think the value isn't really in the presets themselves, but the database, the categorizing of files. And it wouldn't even have to be limited to audio, that could apply to any file type (but of course following that direction it may just be what Google is, and maybe one day we will see a "google files" search).

[bmrzycki]

I'll definitely try this once it's released. It looks like it's a preset browser similar to the one in Omnisphere but for all your toys and not just one.

Couple of questions:

1. Do you plan to add a rating system? It'd be nice if users could see the top rated / most rated presets.

2. Will it be possible to add tags to presets? The name of the preset doesn't always represent the sound of the preset. Again, I think Omnisphere has a good system to handle this. There are about 15-20 adjectives like "light" "dark" "discord" "bass" etc.

I pasted a screen shot of how they do it. I'm sure you've thought of most of this already.



P.S. - I'm super excited that u-he synths work with .h2p presets!

EDIT: I just saw in the KVR blurb you have flexible tags. Awesome!

[Big Tick]

I agree with most of your points. The only thing is, I think there is a need of a smooth transition between now (where a majority of users are reluctant to online DAW) and the situation you describe (a fully online database). Zen can still be used offline since it automatically downloads presets for which the user has expressed interest.

The micropayments system is exactly what I have set up for commercial presets. The idea is that it is easier to sell 10 presets to 10 people, than 100 presets to 1. And at 10cts a preset or so, why bother if buying it is just 1 click away, and it sounds good in the track you are working on ? Because the real power of Zen is the ability to preview presets (any preset, including commercial ones) within the context of a track, inside the sequencer. It is also an answer to the frequent "technology overload" complaint - focus on the sound within the context of a song, not on the details of the plugin that generates the sound.

And yes, although it starts as a universal presets browser- what I really have in mind is a social platform - because populating and maintaining such a gigantic database is a community affair.

'Tick

[tony tony chopper]

And yes, although it starts as a universal presets browser- what I really have in mind is a social platform - because populating and maintaining such a gigantic database is a community affair.

yes totally, it's a huge amount of work that can only be done by users themselves (that's why you really need to be sure of your (sub)categories, not something you can change once it's being used, & I think NI has paved the way here (but maybe they defined too many subcategories))

focus on the sound within the context of a song, not on the details of the plugin that generates the sound

Exactly, thus the problem is a technical one, if the user wants a bass, he probably wants to include soundbanks (which could be under the form of known presets as well) he also owns, but a soundbank isn't something you can technically share online. And you will also face legal problems if it's really presets that you share (unless you only plan to allow user-made ones, but then it's restrictive).

(where a majority of users are reluctant to online DAW)

I'm not quite sure it's the case btw, pretty sure that for a majority of bedroom musicians, the computer is used for everything, & thus connected. I mean I don't think it's your main concern.

[Big Tick]

1. Do you plan to add a rating system? It'd be nice if users could see the top rated / most rated presets.

Yes. The users/community system is actually flexible enough, so that eventually, it will be possible to have presets shared only within a group of users - super useful for collaborative work, where all you will have to do is tag your preset as belonging to the group, and publish it.

2. Will it be possible to add tags to presets? The name of the preset doesn't always represent the sound of the preset. Again, I think Omnisphere has a good system to handle this. There are about 15-20 adjectives like "light" "dark" "discord" "bass" etc.

Already there. The tags actually form a hierarchy. And, in addition to the system-wide tags, users can add their own parallel classification (which can be useful if you want to tag your own favorites, or which presets are used for a given project). And there also are "automatic" tags that Zen manages for you, like the "new" tag (automatically applied to all the new presets that have been downloaded and that you haven't heard yet).

[Big Tick]

And you will also face legal problems if it's really presets that you share (unless you only plan to allow user-made ones, but then it's restrictive).

Indeed. I deal with this the easy way: in order to publish presets, you need a "designer" account. These accounts are free, but I only grant them to people who are serious about sound design. So I can track who publishes what. Also, applying for a designer account implies that you are the legal owner of everything you publish.

[tony tony chopper]

Why not.. I think it will start small if you only allow categorizing an author's own work, but once it has grown then it's good.
But it's a risky bet, as to attract preset designers you need it to be used, and for it to be used you need content, which you require from preset designers (at the same time there are already enough here who will surely sign in). And even with a lot of content, you're taking the risk that a user may not want a search if it doesn't include the library he has built over years/his HDs are already filled with.

[dalor]

Big Tick: this is *amazing* potential and sure I would buy presets for some of my VST's if they fit in the mix. An online community sharing/selling presets is way overdue. Great stuff!

[antoine.bertier]

Very cool idea ! Now that HTML 5 offers local storage and is supported by major browsers, we are going to see a lot more online applications that can also be used offline. So it's the right time for Zen !

[dalor]

Indeed. I deal with this the easy way: in order to publish presets, you need a "designer" account. These accounts are free, but I only grant them to people who are serious about sound design. So I can track who publishes what. Also, applying for a designer account implies that you are the legal owner of everything you publish.

I love the idea of some kind of quality control over submitted presets! The guidelines need to be very clear though.

Stock Image libraries (e.g. Getty Images) have _very_ clear guidelines and are very strict on submitted photographs and artwork. Why not the same for sound presets? It benefits the user with high quality content in the end.

Maybe each preset should come with 2 MP3 examples: dry and in a mix.

I can already see users pressing the 'randomize button' a couple of times and then uploading presets. As long it sounds good, why not.

Also some kind of 'mutation-relation' section to the actual selected preset you are listening to would be interesting. Every preset will be byte/bit compared to all the other presents in the database, the one closest to each other should be come up in the 'mutation-relation' list. This would also avoid double posting other users presets.

[very angry mobster]

Sounds good! I'm looking forward to seeing how it all works.

[Caco]

Pave the way 'Tick and others will follow.

It's good to see someone taking the initiative with this kind of idea and going for it. With enough momentum from the audio community it is an idea that will hopefully snowball into something much bigger

[whyterabbyt]

This is a great idea, but...

(and its a 'but' that applies to other 'wrapper' hosts as well, so its not about Zen as much as its about a situation that Zen and other things are affected by)

It loads in any host as a vsti, and acts as a loader for other vstis.

This is the bit thats the problem. By now we have a plethora of plugins that load as vsti and act as loaders; plugin-type wrappers, oversamplers, 32bit-on-64-bit handlers, mappers for control surfaces, cross-network transports. (Its kind of ironic given the outcry against the VST-to-DX wrappers of a few years ago, in fact).

The problem is, in some cases you can conceive of using three or four of these 'stacked' on your plugins, eg a 64-bit AutoMap-d plugin running oversampled on your 64-bit networked slave with the Zen browser. Clumsy, and potentially far more unstable than a given 'bare' plugin.

So here's a suggestion : try and find a way for standardising an API which allows the functionality of different plugin 'subhosts' to be implemented within each other, instead of having to 'stack' them around each other. In other words a given 'wrapper' needn't be monolithic, it could be split into the 'wrapper' and the 'extension' and the 'extensions', which actually implement the new feature, could be hooked into -any- compliant wrapper. Thus you'd hopefully only need one plugin wrapper per plugin.

Given that most of the plugin wrapper developers are at the small/crafty/nimble end of the scale, it might be possible that its something that's relatively easy to come to a consensus about, and develop further?

[Big Tick]

whyterabbyt, you are right, of course. What I have in mind, at some point, if this picks up enough momentum, is to make it possible to have the zen browser directly integrated into the host - this is where it would have more potential, and a host only needs the browser for picking up presets, since it already does, well, the hosting.

[Lotuzia]

Hmmm the idea is very interesting, however ....

I have a single question :

We - Le Lotus Bleu - create and distribute a lot of soundbanks for Vstis.

( Now please consider that the following is not a way for me to play the moron )

Say a musician owns some of our -commercial- soundbanks, then loads its Vstis into Zen while actually playibg one ( or more ) (or the whole bank ) of our presets ....

Does this means that if this musician has choosen to share its library thru Internet ( Whether because he's not aware that he can work offline and hasnt read the manual, or wether because he just thinks he has the right to share them, wich is false but hey ....... ) ........ SO does this means that "his" ( actually our at Le Lotus Bleu ) presets will be available for all Zen users at once ?

If this is the case then it would be a clear copyright infrigement case imho, cos you dont have the rights to transfer the presets from one location to another, then give access to them to your users/customers.

So can you please tell us (Us = Sound Designers ) how does Zen manage the whole thing ?

Thanks in advance for your answer. Maybe I missed something.

LtZ