4x4 midi box for $35 great alternative for Win 7 users

[Jim Y]

I assumed Steviebone isn't referring to USB bus powering, but internal bus peripherals like pci.

I think it's been proved that USB has poorer midi timing - the jitter has been measured consistently worse than ports on pci cards. But the problems with midi on a PC don't all start with USB.

The problem with timestamps in a mid+audio DAW is the clock reference used for midi timestamping is not in sync with the audio clock (derived from the audio interface sample-rate wordclock). Microsoft played around with this some time ago and managed to produce a timestamping method that used a wholly unreliable reference clock. Fortunately it's possible to use the classic system clock reference (but that's still not in true sync with the audio). It gets worse because the drift never stops even when you stop or rewind the DAW. Apparently the timestamping runs for as long as the midi port device is open. Closing the DAW app terminates the process and if you restart the DAW the drift is reset back to zero (only to grow again of course!)

This is really like trying to use 2 recorders without sync lock up. You probably won't notice a problem if you always quantise midi or never record live midi notes, only do short projects or your stuff is midi only (when the audio clock is of course irrelevant). However, I found long pieces recorded as midi that I didn't want to quantise had somehow lost the groove I thought was there when recording. I now record this kind of thing straight to audio and get what I played.

Jim

[Steviebone]

yes I am talking about internal bussing not USB power bussing. But the long and short of it is that I often experience MIDI problems when I have one or more of my MIDI interfaces connected via USB whereas disconnecting the USB buss and running them as stand-alone MIDI units always fixes the problem.

Jim is correct with regards discussion about timestamps and DAWS.

Bus powered has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. But while were at it I can say that I also refuse to bus power anything. I get standard wall warts or transformers and use standard AC power to power all my devices.

Power notwithstanding, using a MIDI connection to handle large amounts of MIDI data, especially bidirectional MIDI data, has always been problematic for me. Again, handling the MIDI data stream over standard MIDI connections has been infinitely more reliable at least in my studio. I can only speak from my experience and do not seek to convert anyone to my methodology or way of doing things. On the other hand if my experiences can in some way help someone else down the road experiencing similar difficulties then all the better.

But back to the original point of this thread. For whatever reason M-Audio has chosen not to support the PC legacy functions of their 8 x 8 units. This has serious drawbacks for me. And so far the drivers for Windows seven 64-bit for the same units remains in beta form only in any case.

The MIDI box 4x4 remains a cheap alternative to other solutions currently available albeit an alternative which likely has little or no warranty or support.

[TiUser]

Do I understand right that this is especially an issue with DAW timing?

I still miss some numbers to put things logically. In which range is this midi jitter or time stamp inaccuracy?

Finally I stick with my starting point that the weakest part in a chain determines precision, A heavy loaded classical midi connection can not work with precision timing because midi is too slow.

On the other hand especially with huge installations on PC I am always in doubt if this can work well... there are so many things interfering each other on a Windows PC. There is no realtime OS guaranteeing any timing constraints or resource availability so maybe the total system simply can't work precise - regardless how fast processors and other components will ever be...?

...and that's maybe why dedicated DSP based HW still sells for huge studio installations?

[flugel45]

USB midi is certainly an imperfect world.

I would suggest you check out the Edirol units. I don't have one of their midi boxes, but I do have a PCR controller and the amount of midi it can reliably put out over USB surprised me. I've got sysex controls on the knobs, the after touch and playing organ palm swipes without a hitch. All thanks to their USB2 driver I think.

....

+1

Edirol is AFAIK the only company that markets their midi interfaces showcasing some kind of technology for tighter midi: "FPT (Fast Processing Technology) for ultra-low latency and fast, stable MIDI transmission". I suspect they incorporate FPT in their keyboards as well.

I bought an Edirol midi interface for this very reason, and have never had any timing problems (though admittedly I don't push a lot of midi through it).

It's interesting that there used to be a number of midi interfaces that promised tight midi using time-stamping, but they were all proprietary and had to be matched with hardware from the same manufacturer. They are all discontinued now.

So as far as doing something "special" in regards to the midi timing, for now Edirol seems to be it. Whether or not it's just marketing hype, I don't know, but I do see a lot of favorable comments posted about their midi interfaces.

[TiUser]

I've a PCR and have noted FTP technology - honestly without caring much about it.

But my experience is also that I have not had a single issue with it. The edirol comes with dedicated drivers so maybe that's the difference.

I hope the above discussion was not based on windows plug and play usb midi drivers... I never trusted this.

However I've also read that the Edirol midi interfaces seem not to work with all vintage midi gear - for reasons I did not really get.


Coming back to steviebones setups - well these are really huge and probably it's not the greatest idea to built such Windows based at all...?

When I look into HW most is done based on Linux and I am sure that is not just because it's free...

[Steviebone]

As far as Windows goes I'm not having any problems. But then I taken great care in how it is all set up. Not sure if you can get Cubase or Pro tools to run under Linux, I've never even thought about that possibility. It's an interesting concept though unfortunately I am already heavily committed to a fairly large project.

My setup spreads the load over multiple computers. One is used primarily for tracking analog signals such as vocals and guitars. The others are used to generate sound primarily drums, synthesizers and samplers which do most of the orchestration work. The signals from all the machines are summed together at mixdown. The DAW itself processes a handful of vocal and guitar tracks only along with a truckload of MIDI tracks. The MIDI output is routed to several slave machines which generate all of the MIDI parts/sounds. Each computer outputs 32 channels to a control surface and then each of these are in turn summed to a single stereo feed which ends up being the mix. It's a very unorthodox setup that works very well for me.

My novation keyboard controller has been programmed to control all 96 tracks of MIDI data. I can touch a button on my controller and have that MIDI track automatically selected, monitored, armed etc. Because the MIDI data is spread over several machines I can have all 96 channels running at the same time if I wish. Of course I've never needed but a fraction of that. However, I am able to quickly layer sounds from multiple synthesizers and samplers effortlessly. Again, processing load has been spread across several machines so I am able to load each machine up with whatever affects and signal processing is necessary.

It sounds colossal but with the price of today's computers coming down so rapidly (you can buy dual core machines off craigslist dirt cheap) it's a way better approach than trying to have one super machine that can do everything. We've also done some experimenting and testing and have come to the conclusion that having all of the drums and synthesizers recorded directly to the two track mix without being converted to an analog track first produces a punchier better sound. In other words 80% of the mix is direct to 2 track with no generational loss. I know many of you will argue with me about this and I don't care.

I started this thread because I was frustrated with the lack of PC legacy support for the 8 x 8 under Windows 7. The cheap Hong Kong alternative remains exactly that. It may be useful for some people on a budget. After all, even though there is little or no support or warranty I've never had this type of equipment fail. And at 30 bucks who cares?

Since I've made my point about the 4x4 I'm done with this thread. Perhaps another thread about MIDI timing in particular could be useful. Thanks for the comments and whatever your preference please get busy and make music with whatever tools you have. It's about the process not the tools. There are many ways to build a house. The most important thing is that you get busy!

Cheerio.

[TiUser]

I can't finish but saying this is a huge setup...

If you have connected several PC's among each other with midi interfaces then well, timing issues may probably sometimes sum up to the worse - that's another dimension I haven't ever dealt with.

But not having one "super machine" is a concept I like.

I hope you don't get busy most with troubleshooting as this isn't the type of being busy I think is worth to...

[Steviebone]

I can't finish but saying this is a huge setup...

If you have connected several PC's among each other with midi interfaces then well, timing issues may probably sometimes sum up to the worse - that's another dimension I haven't ever dealt with.

But not having one "super machine" is a concept I like.

I hope you don't get busy most with troubleshooting as this isn't the type of being busy I think is worth to...

Well I've been doing this awhile and everything seems to work great. Not to say there wasn't a good deal of technical issues in the beginning. But then nothing worthwhile ever comes easy.

FWIW, I've had no MIDI timing issues so long as I avoid USB as much as possible. And yes, the 'brute force' method has worked well for me. As cheap as computers are now I highly recommend foregoing the one super machine concept and try spreading the load instead. Think of the slave computers as simply a substitute for racks of MIDI gear. It eases the load on the DAW exponentially.

The most recent addition was a quad core machine that I'm using solely for guitar processing. Again, this eased the load on the DAW and gave me the ability to run 8 fully loaded instances of guitar amps and fx's at one time.

The system is indeed big. And it's taken years to sort it all out. But at this point, it's the simplest to operate it's ever been. Well worth the effort I assure you.

Again, Cheerio.

[Steviebone]

Ok I couldnt let this ride... from my post at Maudio:

First, let me begin by saying that I own many Maudio products, including 5 8x8's, 4 profire lightbridges, 3 4x4 legacy, 2 4x4 anniversary, and probably a dozen or so 2x2's (including a couple of 2x2 Anniversary), not to mention some PC audio card stuff.

For the most part I've been very happy with these products. Recently, however, I have had the unfortunate experience performing necessary upgrades to my studio which include the inevitable migration towards Windows 7 64-bit multicore machines. I was frustrated to see that more than a year since the release of Windows 7 to the general public, 64-bit drivers for the 8 x 8 as well as other non-anniversary version products was not supported.

At first, my biggest complaint was the lack of PC remote support. However, realizing that I can use any XP machine to program the patchbay on the unit before looking it up as a stand-alone rendered this the least of my problems. As it turns out migrating the 8 x 8 as a simple USB legacy device intended to be used solely for eight discrete MIDI outputs, something you would think would be very simple since there are several other products on the market that can do this without the need for any native driver, turned out to be a headache the third dimension.

Before continuing, let me say that I understand that this is a beta release. Like so many others I'm frustrated that so much time has passed its there has been any updates on this release and very little communication forthcoming from within the company itself giving even I had as to the status other than some very vague statements about Pro tools issues. I am not using Pro tools.

That said, here is what I encountered when trying to use the beta release on Windows 7 64-bit on a Cubase 5 rig.

The initial install of the drivers seemed to go okay. However, upon exiting Cubase, the computer stopped working. Upon subsequent reboots I would get BSODs complaining about the MIDI sport driver. Windows would not start. At one point the BSOD itself stopped responding saying only that it was preparing the crash dump which was never forthcoming. Attempts at removing the installer from within the safe mode or performing a system restore were not successful. Without going into too much foul language here suffice it to say that before was all over I had to wipe the OS drive clean and load Windows from scratch. A full day's worth of work.

This time I created a MIDI system backups step of the process so I could determine when and where conflicts arose. Basic installation of the OS, the Daw, and core components all went successfully. This time when I got to the point of installing the MIDI sport drivers I saw something different in the Daw. For the first time I was seeing both direct sound and windows MIDI devices. This is where it gets weird though.

But before I go there it should be noted that the system began to lock up on boot again complaining about the MIDI sport driver. I finally figured out that one workaround for this was to make sure that the units were off until I was booted onto the desktop completely. Then I turn the units on one by one and there seems to be no dire consequence.

Okay so the weirdness now has to do with how the system sees multiple instances of more than one unit of the same make and model. For example, my system uses several 8x8s to control and distribute MIDI to a number of external sources. All that is needed is a simple array of outputs. I'm not using the inputs on any of these units nor my performing any type of merge etc., just straight MIDI out. More than one unit is used because I need more than eight discrete outputs to make routing comprehensible and to balance the load of traffic. I've been using this setup in XP 32 for many years now without incident.

Using the new beta driver what gets reported to the system has the same name for each instance of the attached hardware leading to naming confusion within the Daw. For one thing, the windows MIDI sees only the second instance of the 8 x 8. Direct sound on the other hand is listed for both eight by eights. However they have the same exact name and for some reason are always listed in odd even order rather than a numeric sequence.

In XP 32 (or when using the release copy of the anniversary drivers) this problem did not exist. Note that even though the two devices are reported using the same name both devices are in fact loaded and can be communicated with. For example the output select might show something like 8 x 8 channel 1 twice, in the first instance will go to the first 8 x 8 and the second to the second and so on. However, since they all show the same name what you see in the Daw will be confusing to say the least. You cannot differentiate between units unless you are selecting from a drop down menu.

My other concern is that Windows MIDI is not seeing all of the units. And while direct sound shows up for all units they all have the same ID making it difficult to assign properly and for some reason requiring constant reassignment since the settings do not seem to stick always.

In summary, use of the beta drivers can lead to rather nasty BSOD boot failures, which in my case eventually forced a complete reload from scratch something I find extremely objectionable even in a beta release. So if you're going to try these beta drivers my first suggestion is make sure and update all of your backups before doing so. Secondly, if you encounter problems booting after the drivers are installed try turning off or unplugging the devices while you're booting. Lastly, even if you do get the point of using the drivers in your Daw you may have trouble using more than one device the same make and model.

I would hope that a fix for handling multiple instances of a single make and model would be forthcoming quickly. Surely there are many users out there that have more than one 2x2 or 4x4, let alone people like me with multiple 8x8s. Also, anything that can cause BSOD and outright boot failures that lead to corrupted OS drives is not ready for widespread circulation without greater caution. Although to be fair, anything beta is exactly that. Leading me back to the real question of when can we expect there to be a working 64-bit driver for these products and just how important is it to MAudio to support the users. For me, replacing all of my 8x8's would not only be the sour taste in my mouth but probably send me packing up all of my MAudio gear on the auction block. For any serious studio owner with lots of equipment knowing that his investment is secure in that the product that he buys will be supported for at least a few years is paramount. Failing that, better communication from MAudio about these issues might be reassuring if not useful. The bottom line for me is that I can't go for long without this support. I will instead simply kick this gear to the curb in favor of equipment that is properly supported.

Interestingly I recently found a Hong Kong knockoff of 4x4s that works just fine and can be had complete with shipping to your front door for under $35. This unit requires no drivers and was instantly recognized by Windows 7 64. To be fair I did not see direct sound support only Windows MIDI. Still, at 1/5 the price even with little or no warranty or support the unit has real value to someone like me who may be faced with having to replace five 8x8's (presently 10 4x4 anniversary would cost me 1500!). And it leaves me wondering why I'm paying so much money for something that requires a driver that the other product does not.

[TiUser]

This is like your studio setup a quite huge mail ...good luck with getting a response.

[Steviebone]

This is like your studio setup a quite huge mail ...good luck with getting a response.

I expect nothing from this company.... their own site is chock full of dissatisfied customers.... I ordered more Hong Kongers... a fire sale of all my leagcy midisport devices is forthcoming...

[TiUser]

BTW, did you ever try ipMidi from nerds?

[Steviebone]

BTW, did you ever try ipMidi from nerds?

Nope... but I will, thanks... have you? All the PC's are conn ected on 1 GB nics... 20 ports is enough... hmmm... get rid of all USB ... sounds promising...
time to search KVR for more on this perhaps?

Xcellent suggestion sir.

[mkdr]

BTW, did you ever try ipMidi from nerds?

Nope... but I will, thanks... have you? All the PC's are conn ected on 1 GB nics... 20 ports is enough... hmmm... get rid of all USB ... sounds promising...
time to search KVR for more on this perhaps?

Xcellent suggestion sir.

I have the most excellent suggestion for you sir. Copperlan! That thing really works. Out of all the dozens of midi over lan solutions that has been the only one that works without huge delays. Check it out.


Have you tested if the hong kong usb-midi-interfaces work in multi-client mode? I'd need an interface that can handle multiple connections to it's ports(different software using the same port at the same time). I already have E-MU's 2x2 interface that works flawlessly, but costs around 50 euros(almost 100 dollars .

[datapark]

so... i bought this back in september and it finally arrived on friday (held up at customs for over a month, f**k you, canada post)

i've had some time to muck about with it and find its giving pretty iffy results

my host is FLStudio
At first I noticed I was getting little timing variations (slight warbling in pitch and or tempo) if i tried sending any CC info (ie : mod wheel) to any of my outboard boxes (fwiw - novation nova laptop, ea-1 and er-1)

I thought perhaps it was because I have so much hooked up to my USB ports (Novation NIO 24 and RemoteSL25)
With a 2in4out audio interface coupled with what now amounts to 6 midi in, 7 midiout and 3 virtual usb midi ports I thought perhaps the bus was simply maxed out and I was seeing the results of plugging too much shit in to your computer.
However as turning off both my NIO and Remote haven't resolved many issues, in fact, turning the NIO back on and using its out port to control the nova via CC and midi clock showed no errors on Novations side, I'm starting to think that paying 30 bucks for a 4x4 interface will get you nothing more than a cheap pile of shit that isn't good for much else than sending clock signals (about the only thing that isn't buggy)

the oddest part was that it seems to produce some odd feedback error. trying to send a short sequence of notes to my ea-1 and my nova would produce a high pitched "feedback" sound whenever the last note stopped playing, pretty much what would happen if between all your individual notes you'd hit note 127 for the f**king hell of it, and it would only stop if i double hit stop in FL (killing all sounds, midi, etc)

anyway, this is my experience with this box so far
i'm going to try trouble shooting further as its here already and i might as well

oh yeah, running win 7 home prem x64 and no, i didn't need to download any drivers