80's Saw Sound

[olikana]

To be honest, for classic brass sounds, I'd always opt for two detuned sawtooth waves. PWM Pulse waves are much better for pads and strings. Brass needs a little bit of that raw quality which sawtooth waves are naturally able to provide.

with a pwm pulse u can pretty much reproduce the sound of 2 detuned saws (depending on the amount of modulation u apply to the pw and if u are modulating it with a saw lfo) with an added pitch modulation to the sound for that brass vibrations (depending on how much u push the modulation) but also with the advantage that you are only using one oscillator(which allows u to use the second oscillator to fatten it even further).

Hi,

i am currently working on a bank for the Moog Slim Phatty which i got around two weeks ago and i have already done some Brass sounds for it which were all based on Sawtooths. Anyway i wanted to try your hint and replaced the detuned Sawtooth (2 OScs) with a single Pulse and slow PWM. Modulation amount was around 50% and the rate quite slow. This sounds a bit like the "phasing" of 2 detuned Sawtooth waves i have to admit. I have used a Triangle at the LFO, will try the Sawtooth later.
More interesting was the result when i added the second oscillator with one octave lower. That one sounds really interesting and could not be achieved with the other method.

Anyway for the "standard" Synth Brass i'll still prefer two Sawtooths as soon as they are available. in my Blofeld soundset in some cases i also used a single Sawtooth with 2 voice Unison and a slight detune because this resulted in a "cleaner" detuned Sawtooth without to much phasing.
If available also a Hypersaw with adjustable amount of Saws (like in the virus TI) could be helpful for those sounds.


Ingo

the pwm in the phatty sounds really bad unfortunately. it's its weakest point.
but the bottomline is:
in a 2 osc synth if u make a brass with 2 saws u will get the sound of 2 detuned saws.
if instead u use a pwm pulse on osc1(mimicing the sound of 2 detuned saws) and a saw on osc2 (just tune it a bit higher or lower) u get roughly the sound of 3 detuned saws out of a 2 osc synth. in other words a thicker brass than u would get by selecting saw on both oscs.

[AdmiralQuality]

This being the early days of MIDI, it's most probably two or more synths layered. Probably a DX-7 plus a Roland of some kind. Oldest trick in the book. Brassy sounds on both, but one has a definite square component to it as well as the obvious saws. Octave interval between the oscillators (or even the two instruments) is probable too.

[himalaya]

gotta LOVE KVR, debate started, why it always has to be like that ? Someone will write something and someone will overreact and twist some words to makup up fast keyboard fight and another thread is destroyed.
Anyway SQ8L is great for this type of sounds but i hear 2 sounds there not only brassm its brass and saw lead.

The debate here is a healthy one, which already has given the OP lots of info, and has shown that there are several ways to get the sound. Some prefer this method, some others another. I can't see anyone twisting words or having a fight. ?

[Ingonator]

the pwm in the phatty sounds really bad unfortunately. it's its weakest point.
but the bottomline is:
in a 2 osc synth if u make a brass with 2 saws u will get the sound of 2 detuned saws.
if instead u use a pwm pulse on osc1(mimicing the sound of 2 detuned saws) and a saw on osc2 (just tune it a bit higher or lower) u get roughly the sound of 3 detuned saws out of a 2 osc synth. in other words a thicker brass than u would get by selecting saw on both oscs.

At the end of my last post i just added a list with 5 possibilities to obtain a detuned Sawtooth including your PWM method.
Anyway this seems to be only interesting when using it with two oscillators like you just explained.
If possible i'll go with two detuned Sawtooths (or Pulses) or with 1 Sawtooth and a 2 voice Unison (at synths where this is possible).

About Slim Phatty (or Little Phatty): A Brass sound with two Sawtooths sounds fantastic on it and PWM is not too bad (and you could do it with different wavveforms...).


Ingo

[himalaya]

in a 2 osc synth if u make a brass with 2 saws u will get the sound of 2 detuned saws.

Would you consider that (in)famous Vangelis CS80 brass sound, created using two detuned sawtooth waves, as just detuned saws? Perhaps yes, but to my ears, it's one of the more beautiful synth brass sounds. Sawtooths at their best.

How about Van Halen's Jump brass sound which also uses two detuned saws? That bad?

[AdmiralQuality]

Here... try this Poly-Ana patch... 1 OSC doing a saw and OSCS 2 and 3 doing square PWM (out of phase) and detuned a bit. A bit of everything.

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.zip

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.wav

(On listening to the original song again you'll probably want to tweak the release times of ENV 1 and 2 to be a bit shorter.)

[AdmiralQuality]

Here... try this Poly-Ana patch... 1 OSC doing a saw and OSCS 2 and 3 doing square PWM (out of phase) and detuned a bit. A bit of everything.

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.zip

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.wav

(On listening to the original song again you'll probably want to tweak the release times of ENV 1 and 2 to be a bit shorter.)

Here's one more, brassier. This one is all square waves with PWM. But with 3 different square waves, all slightly detuned, all PWMing in different amounts and directions, and panned in stereo, it's a pretty big sound!


http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... MBrass.zip

[PAK]

but the bottomline is:
in a 2 osc synth if u make a brass with 2 saws u will get the sound of 2 detuned saws.
if instead u use a pwm pulse on osc1(mimicing the sound of 2 detuned saws) and a saw on osc2 (just tune it a bit higher or lower) u get roughly the sound of 3 detuned saws out of a 2 osc synth. in other words a thicker brass than u would get by selecting saw on both oscs.

Written theory is fine. Now how about you use that theory, take the 10 mins required to post an audio example, and post something using PWM as the main basis, using the soft synth of choice?

I'm genuinely curious if you can get closer than the JP8V2 example I posted ( http://www.mediafire.com/?b2l144bauh03q0m ) where the main basis of the sound is detuned saws (There is a some PWM used on one of the oscillators on the 2nd layer too )

[PAK]

which already has given the OP lots of info, and has shown that there are several ways to get the sound.

Whilst there are (of course ) many ways to get that sound, written opinions often say very little when it comes to audio. So I disagree that much of anything has actually been "shown" Plus what many people consider "close" I often consider "off by miles". So it really helps to have audio examples

[PAK]

Here... try this Poly-Ana patch... 1 OSC doing a saw and OSCS 2 and 3 doing square PWM (out of phase) and detuned a bit. A bit of everything.

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.zip

http://www.admiralquality.com/products/ ... aTouch.wav

(On listening to the original song again you'll probably want to tweak the release times of ENV 1 and 2 to be a bit shorter.)

That sounds
A) Really bad
B) Absolutely nothing like the sound. Nothing. It's not even a little bit close.

Tweak env 1 or 2 as much as you want, it isn't going to copy that sound well based on what you've presently posted.

[himalaya]

it's a pretty big sound!

and very nice it is too. However, both wav files are a good example why I'd opt for two sawtooths, since those files, the PWM rate creates a 'swimming' like effect, or a 'churning' effect I dislike. In the mix, it would be allright, but solo, this PWM rate is distracting to me. I also like multiple PWM pulse oscillators like in your second example, as it's a great way to get lots of lush movement, but suited better to pads, I think.

[AdmiralQuality]

but the bottomline is:
in a 2 osc synth if u make a brass with 2 saws u will get the sound of 2 detuned saws.
if instead u use a pwm pulse on osc1(mimicing the sound of 2 detuned saws) and a saw on osc2 (just tune it a bit higher or lower) u get roughly the sound of 3 detuned saws out of a 2 osc synth. in other words a thicker brass than u would get by selecting saw on both oscs.

Written theory is fine. Now how about you use that theory, take the 10 mins required to post an audio example, and post something using PWM as the main basis, using the soft synth of choice?

I'm genuinely curious if you can get closer than the JP8V2 example I posted ( http://www.mediafire.com/?b2l144bauh03q0m ) where the main basis of the sound is detuned saws (There is a some PWM used on one of the oscillators on the 2nd layer too )

I just did.

PWM is like two detuned saws, but one saw has to be phase inverted to create the exact same shape. Still, your ear can't actually hear the difference, so yes, PWM can replace 2 detuned saws near transparently (filter artifacts could potentially reveal some of the differences, or not, depending on filter input level and resonance settings).

And again, I'd say the original sound is more than one synth, and more than one synthesis method. So this is only meant to get close to a part of it.

Check this out...

Here we have two saw waves, out of tune. Only difference is the phase of the 2nd wave is inverted in the 2nd and 4th picture down. As you can see, the phase inverted saw makes a PWM wave like we'd expect. The saws in phase make an odd looking double-saw wave, but it sounds identical as you can see from the similar spectra (any minor differences in harmonic levels are because the two instances of the synth aren't in phase with each other so we're seeing two different points in the "beating" waveshape at the moment when I took the screen capture).

[himalaya]

And again, I'd say the original sound is more than one synth, and more than one synthesis method. So this is only meant to get close to a part of it.

You are right, it is more than two synths. In the You Tube mono version it is not audible, but in the stereo version there are two brass sounds panned left and right. They are not even played in tight sync so that's another detuning effect going on here. Obviously, Hall and Oates will pop in in a moment, telling us that in fact this sound was made with a DX7. (not impossible mind!)

[AdmiralQuality]

Obviously, Hall and Oates will pop in in a moment, telling us that in fact this sound was made with a DX7. (not impossible mind!)

I'd bet $10 there's a DX in there somewhere. And don't forget compression, reverb, delay, flanger, chorus, micing cabinets, aural (ahem) exciters, etc...

Here's a bit better quality, extra obnoxious, extended, dance, remix-o version, in stereo...



The dingle-bells on the left are definitely a separate take from that brass pad layered sound, which sounds roughly centered to me and a single keyboard performance. (So most likely MIDI-doubled.)

I'm haulin' oats.

[A.M. Gold]

AQ, -1 for forcibly transporting me back to high school with that vid.