Vertigo vs Harmor vs Alchemy

[ENV1]

It's not about 'sparkle' as we can't compare to the original so we don't know how bright or not this bass ought to sound.

True enough.

But surely you do agree that Harmor (overall - in this example) sounds muffled compared to the other two?

Forget about attacks and transients for a moment, just your subjective impression about the sound as a whole.

[george]

Absence of the 'sparkly' parts.

Harmor has a Denoising feature for resynthesis that's enabled by default & may be causing this, see the Advanced tab.

I see.

George?

Yes on the ADV tab. As said I used the default settings. It looks like there is a little denoise amount indeed. It's very small amount so it shouldn't affect the sound too much, shouldn't it?

[ENV1]

I suppose this was a rhetorical question?

If not; i dont know, i dont have either plugin installed.

(Yet that is, i am definitely going to give Vertigo a try, maybe Harmor too.)

[buttrock]

for a single note sample like an electric bass, i can confirm that harmor is duller than vertigo but if the denoise is set to zero this is more or less subtle. If you compare something like a drumloop or a an acidbaseline harmor is less metallic, fuller and overall more musical.
Don't have Alchemy, so I can't comment on that.

[Igro]

Absence of the 'sparkly' parts. For lack of a better term, of course i realize that it is a bass sound and not expected to be overly 'sparkly'

It's not about 'sparkle' as we can't compare to the original so we don't know how bright or not this bass ought to sound. Never the less, Vertigo's lowest bass note has been reproduced without the same body and weight of the other two. Hence, it's not good for bass resynthesis, at least judging by this example, which I wouldn't by the way.


How about transients?

Vertigo's attack is strong but a bit too muffled.

Harmor has killed the attack completely. There is a faint but sharp noise 'click' but the attack is the softest of the three examples. It does not sound like a bass guitar 'snap'.

Alchemy has a strong, snappy attack, similar to Vertigo's. A faint noisy click is also preset but it's softer than in Harmor's example (I m taking into account the overall noise present in all examples).

But Harmor has a "Declick" button in options.

[rj0]

Absence of the 'sparkly' parts.

Harmor has a Denoising feature for resynthesis that's enabled by default & may be causing this, see the Advanced tab.

I see.

George?

Yes on the ADV tab. As said I used the default settings. It looks like there is a little denoise amount indeed. It's very small amount so it shouldn't affect the sound too much, shouldn't it?

I'm not positive, but I think the "image/resynthesis" selection of "Generic" might limit the max "partial count" setting to 256. The "precision" of "Average" might be having an impact on the sound too.

Try it with those bumped up. (Perhaps just speculation, but worth a try.)

[himalaya]

Forget about attacks and transients for a moment, just your subjective impression about the sound as a whole.

But attack and transients are part of the whole. How can they be ignored? Harmor sounds just a tad darker and yes the spectrum analysis reveals that, but it's such a small difference as to be insignificant in this example.

What this comparison has revealed to me though, is that both Vertigo and Harmor are not good at resynthesising bass guitar, since in Vertigo's example the lowest notes loose definition and become floppy, and in the case of Harmor, the attack becomes soft. Alchemy has managed to keep the lowest notes sharp and defined, and the attack snappy.

But then, I'd never go by such tests posted on a forum, as I know that resynthesising a sound is more tricky than just plonking a sample in several synths and then comparing the result. For example, in Alchemy, when I was unsuccessful at resynthesising the C3 note (as an example only) I would then choose a higher note, say G4, and that would give much better results. So, each synth needs to be worked with to find out its sweep spot: which note ranges give the best results.

[ENV1]

...but it's such a small difference as to be insignificant in this example.

Well, if i can hear it, and it sounds noticably worse than another example, then i cannot consider this insignificant because if it really were i wouldnt be hearing a difference, right?


However, i can respect your opinion and i will be happy to agree that we just disagree in this case.

[himalaya]

I can hear it too, but in this example there are other more important things to look at, things you keep ignoring. It's a bass sound, right? And both Vertigo and Harmor have not reproduced the attack correctly, and for a bass sound, that is more crucial. Then, like I tried to explain, do no get fixated on this comparison, as with more knowledge of each synth, results may be better.

[rj0]

I can hear it too, but in this example there are other more important things to look at, things you keep ignoring. It's a bass sound, right? And both Vertigo and Harmor have not reproduced the attack correctly, and for a bass sound, that is more crucial. Then, like I tried to explain, do no get fixated on this comparison, as with more knowledge of each synth, results may be better.

Agree.

As discussed in the Harmor Released thread, limiting the number of partials has the most impact on low bass sounds. That's why I've recommended bumping the default parameters in the Advanced tab for resynthesis. Might make a difference (then again, it might not ).

[Igro]

So max out the settings and use more samples for resynthesis. Will see...who will do this?

[ENV1]

I can hear it too, but in this example there are other more important things to look at, things you keep ignoring.

See, there is your problem. Thats what you fail to understand. I didnt 'look' at anything, i was merely listening to the examples and posted what i thought sounded best to me.

I call that passing on a spontaneous subjective impression without overanalyzing things.

...both Vertigo and Harmor have not reproduced the attack correctly...

How do you know that?

I thought we had agreed that we cannot draw such conclusions unless we have the original sample to compare?

...do no get fixated on this comparison, as with more knowledge of each synth, results may be better.

I didnt.

On the contrary, i have already asked for more comparisons.

[bmanic]

I think this "demo" of resynthesis quality is extremely flawed.

The incredibly simple drag and drop with almost perfect results in Harmor is VASTLY superior to Alchemy (never heard about nor used Vertigo).

In this demo you used a very simple note. Try adding a full song with complex stereo movement. Harmor absolutely brutally KILLS alchemy, even at it's default, low CPU settings. Now crank up the quality of Harmor (it has tons of settings in the advanced page) and it is in a complete league of it's own.

Here, listen to this (sorry about the noise burst, I'm still exploring the Harmor demo). The audio example I posted below was made in less than 5 minutes. I start reaper, add a channel of Harmor, drag and drop a file, insert Edison, record the live performance, convert to mp3, post to the net. All this took less than 5 minutes. Now THAT's what I call creative power.

Harmor Kills

The first complete loop is the ORIGINAL file.. everything after that is pure harmor. Now tell me that ain't impressive?? If you can recreate this in Alchemy I'll eat my left nut live on youtube!

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

For example, in Alchemy, when I was unsuccessful at resynthesising the C3 note (as an example only) I would then choose a higher note, say G4, and that would give much better results. So, each synth needs to be worked with to find out its sweep spot: which note ranges give the best results.

And this is where Harmor shines and vastly outperforms Alchemy. You simply drag and drop and it'll sound damn good immediately!! No fussing around with any settings. Drag.. drop.. boom. Done.

Even the resynthesis analysis is much, MUCH faster than Alchemy.

Check the demo above.. everything done in less than 5 minutes after starting reaper, including posting it to the web. Try doing that with Alchemy! Ain't gona happen.

Cheers!
bManic

[ENV1]

Jesus Christ...what a chaos!

But i agree...thats pretty darn impressive!

Would be cool to hear that via Vertigo.

(bmanic, why dont you grab the demo and enlighten us?)


PS: Juicy bassdrum. Liked it very much.