The KVR user reviews - what a great age this is! Only 10s!

[AKJ]

I belivee it used to be better (= more plugins rated below 10) when the rating was based not only on a overall rating (as now) but had several subcategories (like sound, stability, presets, support etc.). This also had an impact the quality of the texts. KVR should reintroduce the old system.

[Urs]

I belivee it used to be better (= more plugins rated below 10) when the rating was based not only on a overall rating (as now) but had several subcategories (like sound, stability, presets, support etc.). This also had an impact the quality of the texts. KVR should reintroduce the old system.

+1

[rj0]

I rate this thread a 10!

+1

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Sendy]

My problem with giving ratings, is that what do you compare it to? Compared to the ultimate archetypal infinitely perfect platonic idea of the best concievable plugin, everything scores zero, so you have to score relative to something else in the real world.

The "problem" is, as I noted in one of my reviews recently, the quality of VST instruments has recently sky-rocketed. Even in the freeware department there's stuff like Bootsy's effects, TALs, the U-he freebies, Charlatan, etc that are deserving of a 9.5 or 10. It's ridiculous.

We could all agree to re-calibrate and raise our demands for giving a '10', but that standard will be out of date in another year.

Also, as has been already pointed out, people try to only review stuff they really like. To write a decent review you've got to be familiar with a certain product and have gotten a fair amount of use out of it already, which usually only happens with the best products.

b.t.w I also preferred the old rating system, because I found giving out a bunch of scores over different areas was a lot easier than just thinking of "the right number to award this synth"... So arbitrary

I'd also like a system with more shades of excellence available, like maybe a score out of 100. But most people would probably find that silly.

[digitalboytn]

The easiest solution would be to increase the range of the overall score to 12.

Then the reviews that have been scored a 10 would only appear to be OK and not picture postcard perfect

[Vintage73]

The easiest solution would be to increase the range of the overall score to 12.

Then the reviews that have been scored a 10 would only appear to be OK and not picture postcard perfect

[Lotuzia]

I think part of the spread seen in the reviews is due to people being more likely to review the things that they really really like. Or, really really dislike.
Id guess there is the opposite of a bell curve in the review average.

edit:
Oh- But yeah, lots of tens out there these days.

Agreed - that's true also for most consumer review sites - love or hate it.

Also, I'd imagine people review after they've purchased (in which case they've often already decided they liked the product). There are a lot of products that can be reviewed on demos, but that's not always the case if they are hobbled, unavailable, etc.

I think getting rid of the number system might help (can you post a review without it? You can just discuss strong/weak points, but not be concerned with posting a poor score (I also think a lot of people don't want to feel like they've disparaged the devs, many of whom are active, helpful, and friendly on the forums. And it's so subjective - what are the points deducted for a plug that sounds great but hard on the CPU? You can objectively state that, but not necessarily determine whether it's a flaw (poor optimization), or simply a trade-off.

I like the CM reviews, but have wondered also about their relationships with developers (or any mag for that matter). I asked Chris Randall about this once (he never answered), since CM reviews AudioDamage plugins and Chris is a contributing editor - I'm not AT ALL accusing CM of consciously skewing reviews, but even sub-conciously it's gotta be tough to be critical of friends and colleagues.

I can assure you there are none. and I think it's true for the big majority of the developers. You can see it just the opposite way : Beeing choosen by CM for a review is usually an honor in se, it means the instrument has retained their attention. And then if you actually READ the CM reviews, and can read a bit between the lines, you might eventually learn even more. Words matter.

Imho the spirit is about the same for the KVR reviews, it just someone who shows his/her enthousiasm for a certain unit. Then if you read the review itself, you'll probably have more clues about the reliability of the author, and/or if you did learn something.

As for the notes given, it "should" indicate a scale, and therefore induces comparisons with other similar instruments (if any), some knowledge or the beginning of a method to compare them, to really know the differences between the different instruments, etc etc. Often, it will just indicate : I this thing And if you just see it like that, well it's ok.

This is where CM goes further, the reviews are much more detailed, but well the journalists are paid for that, and you can't ask to users of a review to spend so much time and work for a simple review on a forum.

Btw ...... I think people can rate the reviews ( not on a 100 scale), so the accuracy of the system has a kind of social control/balance a la youtube ( minimal Love/Hate ). If people think that some reviews are not helpfull and learn them nothing, well just rate them. Review the reviewers .... Welcome to Kvr

[rifftrax]

The "problem" is, as I noted in one of my reviews recently, the quality of VST instruments has recently sky-rocketed. Even in the freeware department there's stuff like Bootsy's effects, TALs, the U-he freebies, Charlatan, etc that are deserving of a 9.5 or 10. It's ridiculous.

This is really good point. The music production community is a rather different kind of arena in the world of consumer feedback. Producers and the plugin and software developers they buy from interact and provide feedback on forums/boards/websites on a plane and scale that really has no parallel in any other development environment. The demand for high-quality plugins is met with rather extraordinary drive to deliver exactly that. Because there is so much transparency on every level from so many developers, consumers feel like they are part of the actual development process (and often in reality are) and the end product is infinitely more capable and satisfying to use.

You can probably only imagine what would happen if a company like Microsoft used a similar model of offering their devs the transparency of being able to post daily updates to the coding process on a forum and then actually take suggestions from the end-user and implement them in real-time (like happens here pretty much EVERY SINGLE DAY, seems the most novel concepts are also the most stupidly obvious). What would happen is their products would stop eating shit and start bearing a semblance to the incredible feats of engineering in both the free and payware world of music software that seem to be introduced everyday.

The music development and production community is seriously an amazing model of how shit actually gets done crazy efficiently to everyone's benefit. The fact that more industries don't f**king get that is really obnoxious. But why does such high quality development in general seem to be so prevalent for music production of all things? Well my theory is that you have to think both like an artist and an engineer at the same time, and very few people can wear both of those hats well. Musicians are also just smarter people. Combine someone who really understands music with someone who really understands computer science or some type of in-depth engineering and you have a pretty formidable combination of capabilities IMO:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/2 ... 04124.html

So yes, I do believe everything that has been rated a 10 probably does deserve that. But you know what doesn't deserve a goddamn 10?? Most software I've ever used (with very few exceptions) that isn't related to music development. That means you Microsoft, you candy-ass crap devs.

Seriously, if all software was generally as high caliber as the stuff for music development. Well hell. I would be f**king ecstatic.

[Nielzie]

I like the CM reviews, but have wondered also about their relationships with developers (or any mag for that matter). I asked Chris Randall about this once (he never answered), since CM reviews AudioDamage plugins and Chris is a contributing editor - I'm not AT ALL accusing CM of consciously skewing reviews, but even sub-conciously it's gotta be tough to be critical of friends and colleagues.

True, imho they should give a little more attention to some smaller developers with high quality plugins, like TeamDNR's MixControl or Sknote's StripBus, etc.

[JoeCat]

Just to be clear again, in no way am I implying any sort of nepotism on CM's part - I'm a fan of the mag. and find the reviews balanced and helpful.

It's a small community. I even get a little upset when I see devs fighting on the forum. Most of the guys have worked hard and dedicated themselves to their products. I think a lot of times, reviewers feel like if they have nothing nice to say, they don't want to say it. Which is perfectly reasonable.

[cron]

I'm not AT ALL accusing CM of consciously skewing reviews, but even sub-conciously it's gotta be tough to be critical of friends and colleagues.

... and advertisers.

[Shy]

So yes, I do believe everything that has been rated a 10 probably does deserve that. But you know what doesn't deserve a goddamn 10?? Most software I've ever used (with very few exceptions) that isn't related to music development. That means you Microsoft, you candy-ass crap devs.

Seriously, if all software was generally as high caliber as the stuff for music development. Well hell. I would be f**king ecstatic.

"Everything" includes all the piece of shit synth "emulations" that people think "sound 99.5% like the real thing", all the idiotic single algorithm modulation/delay-based effect plugins that do nothing special whatsoever and have some saturation on top so that they would have an "analog sound", and all the stuff that could basically make your ears bleed unless you use very specific settings, that people decided is worth a god damned score of *10 out of 10*.

I believe you're (not just you, most people here) overly optimistic. I've been (that means still am) following software instruments and effects since before VST plugins were available and by far, most of what I've downloaded and used turned out to be low quality crap. Some of it is fine but not something to "write home about", some of it is quite nice, and very, very few things are the "oh man, this is almost, or maybe even the thing I've been wanting all this time" (you know, a 9 or maybe even a 10 out of 10).

There's still a LOT lacking in software plugins, and before I feel comfortable to rate something highly, I can ask myself "a 10? Compared to what?" and in most -good- cases I can answer to myself "well, it may be passable in the plugin world, but it has a long way to go before it would actually deserve a 10. It's just not good enough."

I've read a few user reviews on these forums that have really helped me. Reviews by people who also have a point of reference and also have high expectations, who don't feel afraid to express their opinion and if needed, to tell me "what you're doing, how you're thinking about this, and what you use is completely wrong, you could do better", and even if I end up disagreeing, I appreciate hearing an opinion from someone who hasn't made themselves a part of a cuddly "we love everyone and do what's good for you" "community".

Magazines? That's almost funny. I don't care who writes it, especially if someone related to this "community" is involved. Almost no developer who visits this forum frequently (and most do) would dare to give something a low score, because of the "we're all buddies here" attitude of this place. I've been reading this forum ever since it's been publicly available, and it hasn't changed. That's just how it is, there's lots of "avoidance of being negative" in places like this, that's the plain truth.

Recent related example: because of the personal nature of this place (developers are here, company forums are here), people don't feel comfortable to say some software they bought is not as good as some other software. Me? I don't care. Personally I'm glad to let people know that I like a free string synth like The deputy Mark II better than a commercial string synth (Loomer String). Maybe it would make them think twice before overlooking a fine instrument just because it's free.

[VitaminD]

I've reviewed 13 products on kvr. only 1 of them received a rating of 10.

But the rating shouldn't matter as much as what the reviewer SAYS to back up whatever rating score they give.

[rifftrax]

I believe you're (not just you, most people here) overly optimistic. I've been (that means still am) following software instruments and effects since before VST plugins were available and by far, most of what I've downloaded and used turned out to be low quality crap. Some of it is fine but not something to "write home about", some of it is quite nice, and very, very few things are the "oh man, this is almost, or maybe even the thing I've been wanting all this time" (you know, a 9 or maybe even a 10 out of 10).

That's really great... so have I lol. I've used FL Studio since it was version 1. I'm pretty sure I have 500 vsts in my plugin folder at this very moment. I've probably purchased more in terms of plugins and music software than most people have in their cars and maybe even their house. If you want to do the whole e-penis "who's the biggest plugin whore of them all" thing I'm totally ready to go there my friend. Anyway. Yeah, there is plenty of utter crap plugins available. I'm not disputing that.

What there is is very very competent stuff available either cheap or free that is light years beyond comparable software in other industries. LIGHT YEARS. Photo-editing comes to mind. The currently available crop of software for photo manipulation is a MASSIVE shitty pita to use (photoshop is really the worst offender). Video editing? Same thing. PAIN IN THE ASS.

Comparing how quickly I can arrange a song in say FL Studio vs. how quickly I could potentially edit a full-length video in Final Cut is almost laughable. It's one of the reasons why I write music and instead of doing graphic design or video editing.

There's still a LOT lacking in software plugins, and before I feel comfortable to rate something highly, I can ask myself "a 10? Compared to what?" and in most -good- cases I can answer to myself "well, it may be passable in the plugin world, but it has a long way to go before it would actually deserve a 10. It's just not good enough."

I don't get this feeling at all honestly about pretty much every synth and effect and program that I've purchased.

[braj]

I think if the rating system were better we would have better/more ratings. Personally I'd like to be able to rate plugins without writing about them with an easy radio-button system, I'd rate a lot more that way (I don't even know if I have rated one yet!)

I'd like a way to make a listing on KVR of all the plugins I own/use, and have my ratings/reviews available there, and be able to adjust them as my opinions change. I'd also like to be able to look at a trusted KVR member's reviews easily in the same way. (I know there is supposed to be this feature but it doesn't work currently)