OK, now we are talking. Most of the Philly R&B famous songs were done by two people sitting by an old piano in a room hammering out songs all day long. So delete any thoughts about plug-ins, mixing, bla bla bla. Use an old piano or any instrument and figure out the melody and harmonies. When that's in place, produce the song with any instruments. It helps to listen to good song writers, Stevie Wonder, Burt Baccarach, The Beatles, Carole King, Elton John (and my favorite Todd Rundgren.)thecontrolcentre wrote:Is that true in your case? If so you just answered your own question. Learn to play an instrument and you'll automatically pick up songwriting and arranging skills along the way. IMHO it's the best way to really understand how to make music.maudioradium wrote:I think part of the reason why there's such poor electronic music nowadays is mostly due to "musicians" not knowing how to play an instrument
How to make a tune?
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- KVRian
- 807 posts since 26 Aug, 2005 from Oregon, USA
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- Banned
- 147 posts since 4 Feb, 2012 from Carolina Beach
Maudi, I get the feeling you are completely on the level here, and I've heard your question from players with 10 and 20 years of playing experience.
There are almost as many acceptable ways and answers to your question as you''ll find in a week of posts here, so I'm going to go about this a different way. Assuming you know how to use whatever instruments you have, whether software or hardwood, consider this:
Usually most often attributed to The Duke, as in Duke Ellington, he once said, "THERE ARE ONLY TWO KINDS OF MUSIC -- GOOD and BAD."
Bottom line then, if the bunch of sounds you capture and organize sound good to you when played together, you are off to a great start. If what you have sounds good to a few others, then even better. If it sounds good to million, then move over Justin Beaver, right?
There are a few all-time best books on Music Theory that will fill in the gaps, hopefully before they make your eyes glass over and fall asleep on the couch. Yes, I found most of them rather stiffly written and usually boring. It really can be very good-to-know info, though. Even better, start getting VERY familiar with one basic scale of your choosing to start with; I suggest natural minor. Learn the relationship of the notes in that scale to each other -- the intervals (distance from note A to note B) between them and the harmonies they make when played simultaneously. Being able to read music can really help, but maybe get to that a little later. Many of the world's greatest players never really learned to read well or at all, which proves it is not of No. 1 or 2 importance. You really hould pick up some basic music theory and fairly soon, and it will also spark a few composing ideas.
Think horizontal -- one note follows another
Think vertical -- notes played together (that harmony business)
Whatever you do, don't let learning the mechanical details (that theory business) ruin your creativity. We take little kids every day in schools and educate the creativity and inspiration right the dickens out of them, producing dull cogs for future assembly line use. It happens all the time in music departments at university level, too, and is painful to observe.
It's been so long I can't rember offhand, but search on the net and ask any respected classroom music teacher. Some music theory books are far better than the others. Probably good sites online that will explain the details plainly and in a way that won't be too painful.
Best Wishes!
Oh . . . and don't give up. It gets easier. New and better ideas and sounds will come out of seemingly nowhere and as if by magic from time to time, too. Practice is probably more important here than in maintaining your abilities on your instrument.
(BTW, I agree with that remark about crappy electronic music today -- and all around elsewhere for that matter. Young people these days seem to think it's like Rock Band, just play the colored pads and all will be awesome. There is an epidemic of idiotic laziness pervading modern culture. No one is willing to do any of the WORK. These stupid smart phones make kids think it's going to play for you somehow or fix all your mistakes. Music is art and often fun too, but before that and underneath all it is very seriously work.)
There are almost as many acceptable ways and answers to your question as you''ll find in a week of posts here, so I'm going to go about this a different way. Assuming you know how to use whatever instruments you have, whether software or hardwood, consider this:
Usually most often attributed to The Duke, as in Duke Ellington, he once said, "THERE ARE ONLY TWO KINDS OF MUSIC -- GOOD and BAD."
Bottom line then, if the bunch of sounds you capture and organize sound good to you when played together, you are off to a great start. If what you have sounds good to a few others, then even better. If it sounds good to million, then move over Justin Beaver, right?
There are a few all-time best books on Music Theory that will fill in the gaps, hopefully before they make your eyes glass over and fall asleep on the couch. Yes, I found most of them rather stiffly written and usually boring. It really can be very good-to-know info, though. Even better, start getting VERY familiar with one basic scale of your choosing to start with; I suggest natural minor. Learn the relationship of the notes in that scale to each other -- the intervals (distance from note A to note B) between them and the harmonies they make when played simultaneously. Being able to read music can really help, but maybe get to that a little later. Many of the world's greatest players never really learned to read well or at all, which proves it is not of No. 1 or 2 importance. You really hould pick up some basic music theory and fairly soon, and it will also spark a few composing ideas.
Think horizontal -- one note follows another
Think vertical -- notes played together (that harmony business)
Whatever you do, don't let learning the mechanical details (that theory business) ruin your creativity. We take little kids every day in schools and educate the creativity and inspiration right the dickens out of them, producing dull cogs for future assembly line use. It happens all the time in music departments at university level, too, and is painful to observe.
It's been so long I can't rember offhand, but search on the net and ask any respected classroom music teacher. Some music theory books are far better than the others. Probably good sites online that will explain the details plainly and in a way that won't be too painful.
Best Wishes!
Oh . . . and don't give up. It gets easier. New and better ideas and sounds will come out of seemingly nowhere and as if by magic from time to time, too. Practice is probably more important here than in maintaining your abilities on your instrument.
(BTW, I agree with that remark about crappy electronic music today -- and all around elsewhere for that matter. Young people these days seem to think it's like Rock Band, just play the colored pads and all will be awesome. There is an epidemic of idiotic laziness pervading modern culture. No one is willing to do any of the WORK. These stupid smart phones make kids think it's going to play for you somehow or fix all your mistakes. Music is art and often fun too, but before that and underneath all it is very seriously work.)
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- addled muppet weed
- 111274 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
get your ideas down and dont feel bad about working with others, collaberation can help a great deal.
there are people who can wite for example a great melody or bass line, but have problems getting further.
were so lucky in this day and age because we have the internet, we can work with people on the other side of the world who can take your idea and add bits, then maybe someone else can add more and so on.
then you can hear your ideas grow and learn from this how you can flesh out ideas on your own in the future
or you can ontinue working with others and form a "band" online and get some results and not feel youre going nowhere fast.
learning an instrument is a good idea, but its not the only way, there are songwriters who write just lyrics then hire session musicians to add the rest, there are artists out there writng great music that have no idea about music theory, the whole punk movement started with many people with no previous music experience just jamming out chords and now some of them are acts who many name as influences.
there are people who can wite for example a great melody or bass line, but have problems getting further.
were so lucky in this day and age because we have the internet, we can work with people on the other side of the world who can take your idea and add bits, then maybe someone else can add more and so on.
then you can hear your ideas grow and learn from this how you can flesh out ideas on your own in the future
or you can ontinue working with others and form a "band" online and get some results and not feel youre going nowhere fast.
learning an instrument is a good idea, but its not the only way, there are songwriters who write just lyrics then hire session musicians to add the rest, there are artists out there writng great music that have no idea about music theory, the whole punk movement started with many people with no previous music experience just jamming out chords and now some of them are acts who many name as influences.
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- Banned
- 2033 posts since 19 Jun, 2011 from a world of Black Thunder chocs
Good spot Dan and Matt.Mushy Mushy wrote:I found the ableton live bit interestingD.H. Miltz wrote:maudioradium says there's no leg pulling going on, so here's the thread reopened with an eye on it.D.H. Miltz wrote:This makes me think maudioradium is pulling ol' KVR's leg here, so I'm locking this.
maudioradium, if I'm mistaken and you want to make a case for reopening the thread, PM me.
Not least because as you and TCC (and others) have spotted from this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
maudioradium wrote: Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:42 am
Just a moment ago I was happily making my track when suddenly a blown-out scream erupts from ableton live (using triangle II), I panic and slam off my headphones and I'm left partially deafened and a minute later a tinnitus hiss comes in like being on the beaches of Normandy.
...
In my efforts, I put on George Yohngs W1 Limiter on the master, but this doesn't seem to do much (I tested it by using some gains on a particular track and checked how loud it could get with my laptop on medium volume, it was still very loud).
So much for his 'I've just downloaded my first sequencer' in this new (June) thread.
(The 'county (sic) and western' comment in this thread, plus his reluctance to respond to any of the various posts in this thread properly gives it away too).
Good one maudioradium - you win this time, but it's now obvious what a time-wasting troll you are.
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- Banned
- 147 posts since 4 Feb, 2012 from Carolina Beach
You know, if it's truly a bogus threadstarter, it is probably the OP who has wasted the most time here, having to keep an eye on how this is all unfolding.
In my own case, I stopped teaching in 1984, so I hadn't given the subject much consideration in years and years. I mean, how do you explain any of this when you have to assume the person asking is at a level of near-zero knowledge? (A formal music ed. setting is about the worse place to learn this stuff anyways, as half the dept. consisted of brain-dead profs. who ended up teaching because they had to.) I found it quite challenging to write anything of significance without immediately becoming either overly technical or extremely uninspiring. The original question is a fair one and rather common. Music is perhaps the dodgiest of subjects -- there is no 'look, here are the five steps to the Scientific Method; we always follow these and do it precisely this way. It's fool-proof.'
I see an awful lots of folks here with significant knowledge about audio and the related software, but not a lot of good composers. Or as Beat Poet Charles Bukowski once said, addressing a group of English majors at their mid-semester wine and cheese poetry reading: "I see a awful lot of typers in this room, but I don't see any poets."
I saw several thoughtful attempts here to deal with the question. Some musical newbie or two will stumble onto this thread and hopefully have that 'Aha' moment!
In my own case, I stopped teaching in 1984, so I hadn't given the subject much consideration in years and years. I mean, how do you explain any of this when you have to assume the person asking is at a level of near-zero knowledge? (A formal music ed. setting is about the worse place to learn this stuff anyways, as half the dept. consisted of brain-dead profs. who ended up teaching because they had to.) I found it quite challenging to write anything of significance without immediately becoming either overly technical or extremely uninspiring. The original question is a fair one and rather common. Music is perhaps the dodgiest of subjects -- there is no 'look, here are the five steps to the Scientific Method; we always follow these and do it precisely this way. It's fool-proof.'
I see an awful lots of folks here with significant knowledge about audio and the related software, but not a lot of good composers. Or as Beat Poet Charles Bukowski once said, addressing a group of English majors at their mid-semester wine and cheese poetry reading: "I see a awful lot of typers in this room, but I don't see any poets."
I saw several thoughtful attempts here to deal with the question. Some musical newbie or two will stumble onto this thread and hopefully have that 'Aha' moment!
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- D.H. MOD
- 17862 posts since 21 Jun, 2008
@Doug: I can't take credit for noticing, as it was brought to my attention by a PM from someone (I'd give credit, but unless I'm sure the credit's wanted, keeping the P in PM seems the best course).
No longer a moderator.
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- Banned
- 2033 posts since 19 Jun, 2011 from a world of Black Thunder chocs
^^ cool Dan - good idea.
And great post The Telenator - I agree fully. The thread itself is full of excellent advice and contributions.
And great post The Telenator - I agree fully. The thread itself is full of excellent advice and contributions.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 103 posts since 24 Dec, 2011
Believe it or not, sometimes people just need to start from the beginning.
I am pretty fed up of moving midi notes aimlessly until they sound good and since my midi keyboard doesn't work any more I am having to deal with playing notes on my qwerty keyboard.
I could have started with "I have been doing this for 5 years and only now do I want to learn about how to best compose" but that would have been laced with shame on my part and something I'd rather avoid. However, for the paranoid among us I was definitely a great candidate for playing a joker and so that's now been beaten to death.
I recently took a track into ableton live, I wanted to study Alexander O'neils song - If you were here tonight since I found the production desirable and I wanted to study the melody.
I ended up replicating it to an extent and then doing my own chords in the same tempo. http://soundcloud.com/exsub/smoothy-time5
The chords underlining it are A, D, F, D.
As you'll notice, the song whilst musically pleasing doesn't go anywhere and again I'm back to moving midi notes around until I get a working keyboard. Also you'll notice that there's no progression - again another thing of which I have no idea of but would like some tips/advice.
Though, good advice has already been given as acknowledged by a few members here, so thanks a lot for that and that advice I have taken and will spend time on.
I am pretty fed up of moving midi notes aimlessly until they sound good and since my midi keyboard doesn't work any more I am having to deal with playing notes on my qwerty keyboard.
I could have started with "I have been doing this for 5 years and only now do I want to learn about how to best compose" but that would have been laced with shame on my part and something I'd rather avoid. However, for the paranoid among us I was definitely a great candidate for playing a joker and so that's now been beaten to death.
I recently took a track into ableton live, I wanted to study Alexander O'neils song - If you were here tonight since I found the production desirable and I wanted to study the melody.
I ended up replicating it to an extent and then doing my own chords in the same tempo. http://soundcloud.com/exsub/smoothy-time5
The chords underlining it are A, D, F, D.
As you'll notice, the song whilst musically pleasing doesn't go anywhere and again I'm back to moving midi notes around until I get a working keyboard. Also you'll notice that there's no progression - again another thing of which I have no idea of but would like some tips/advice.
Though, good advice has already been given as acknowledged by a few members here, so thanks a lot for that and that advice I have taken and will spend time on.