Would like to talk about experience with online mastering houses.

How to do this, that and the other. Share, learn, teach. How did X do that? How can I sound like Y?
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Oh and one more thing that irritates me a lot is how some people still cling to the notion of how difficult and precious mastering is. How it is somehow a "black art" and almost magic. That's utter bull shit.

An awesome thread on gearslutz where somebody asked "what is more difficult. Mixing or mastering?" we had several HUGE names in mastering almost all replying at the same time. Most of them said either mixing or recording!

This is so true. If you think about it from a song standpoint. Where do you have the chance to screw things up the most? The answer: In the actual composing/production/arranging session! That's where you make the first massive mistakes which have repercussions throughout the entire project. Then you come to he recording phase (provided that the music genre has live/acoustic instruments) which is another place where you can do some irreparable damage!

Then you have the mixing session which could basically be considered as a mastering session that has 100+ tracks instead of just one! :D

(well, not really because blending tracks together is a very different kind of process but it is still all about balancing elements and going for compromises, kind of like in mastering!)

Finally you have the mastering session where you are basically stuck with everything that came before. You can't do miracles and you can't really do huge changes. So why on earth has this become so revered and acknowledged as the most difficult? I have absolutely no idea.. to me it's completely backwards.

Sure, to be a good mastering engineer you need a lot of experience and must have been exposed to a huge variety of music. This builds up your musical "taste" and will let you gel with the client and produce a good end product.

But this is equally true for recording and mixing engineers! There's nothing unique here that only applies to mastering. On top of that, a recording engineer needs to know A LOT about mixing and perhaps something about mastering too, to get the best raw data on disk/tape! The mixing engineer needs to know a lot about recording techniques to be able to fully utilize the recorded data he has and he has to know a lot about what happens in the mastering stage too! The mastering engineer doesn't really need to know anything about recording or mixing!

I think various music technology schools have it completely backwards. The students should START with mastering. They should start with the broad strokes and thus start understanding how EQs work and how it affects the general tonal balance. Then they learn which decisions make the track better and which make them worse. In the same time they experiment with the EQ they get an intuitive grasp on tonality of music and how it's affected by EQ.

Same goes for compression. They learn to hear how a compressor works. It's much easier to hear a compressor working over a whole track than over a single instrument or vocal track. They intuitively learn the differences between the various types of compressors.

Once the students have learned the "broad strokes" of fine tuning a complete mix they should go to the next stage, the mixing stage! Here they can utilize their knowledge from mastering. They know which instruments might clash and at what frequencies so they already intuitively learned to remedy these situations. They learned the basic operation of compressors and what they can do with it. Once they've mastered the mixing stage :hihi: .. they can move on to the ultimate challenge, the recording stage!

Here they need to take all knowledge they had from the previous two stages to fully optimize their recordings. They know from the mixing stage what mistakes not to do and what constitutes a "good" recording. It's amazing how many people don't really know what a good recording is. Sure, you put a mic there and hit record.. it sounds good enough but only when you reach the mixing stage do you realize just how badly it fits with the other tracks! Going backwards in the study process you can avoid these mistakes and can intuitively learn what constitutes a good recording thus knowing when you have one!

Sorry for the massively long post. I find this topic extremely interesting and stick by my "reverse study order" like it was gospel! If I ever decided to take up teaching in the field at some point I'm going to test this and see if it has any merit in reality (it might not.. :lol: ).

Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle

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bmanic wrote: Personally I'm always looking for audio examples on the website but even this can be very much falsified. Some people seem to purposefully have a semi-decent mix which they have seriously compromised on purpose.. then they compare that compromised version with the "mastered" version and of course there is a HUGE difference. These should be avoided as well. It's usually quite easy to tell when the bass is missing from 70hz down and highs are cut out completely. :D
That's a good point. I don't think I've ever even considered that. It's a good reason to ask for referrals, but I guess that even those could be falsified in the same manner.
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cryophonik wrote:
bmanic wrote: Personally I'm always looking for audio examples on the website but even this can be very much falsified. Some people seem to purposefully have a semi-decent mix which they have seriously compromised on purpose.. then they compare that compromised version with the "mastered" version and of course there is a HUGE difference. These should be avoided as well. It's usually quite easy to tell when the bass is missing from 70hz down and highs are cut out completely. :D
That's a good point. I don't think I've ever even considered that. It's a good reason to ask for referrals, but I guess that even those could be falsified in the same manner.
Ask for a free test. It can't lie.
Laurent Sevestre
Online mastering
MaximalSound.com

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I've recommended people to 'Studio Compyfox' and they've been really happy with his work plus his pricing is pretty reasonable:) He does the mixing and mastering for my commercial work. as well.
A lot of composers (myself included) find mastering a chore so it's great that there are so many online services being offered and at affordable prices.

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A good way to find an engineer is to look at the liner notes of your favorite cds (which are a rarity these days) or go to a place like discoqs.com or allmusic.com or something similar, and see who has mastered your favorite works. These sites are by no means comprehensive, but if the same name keeps popping up, there's your mastering engineer, and most engineers and studios have an online service these days, files in/out, etc.

My two pieces of advice:

1) Remember it's the engineer and not the gear. I'd trust Greg Calbi or Ted Jensen armed only with a guitar amp and a cassette deck to do a better mastering job than 99% of the online mastering houses that have cropped up over the past few years.

2) Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.

HTH!

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Does anyone have experience with this?

http://www.abbeyroadonlinemastering.com/

Do they provide the high quality that the well known name "Abbey Road" implies, or is the online mastering made by the trainees?

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SOS: On-line Mastering Services Shootout!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/a ... tering.htm
Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

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Aloysius, I've already posted this link...
Laurent Sevestre
Online mastering
MaximalSound.com

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Aloysius wrote:SOS: On-line Mastering Services Shootout!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/a ... tering.htm
It's from 2006, in 7 years there's much that could have been changed - new people, new studios, new equipment... :!:

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Laurend wrote:Aloysius, I've already posted this link...
Oops! :) I wasn't really following the thread.
Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

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I've deleted my initial post by error.

Here it is with some tracks of the SOS shootout.
I've joined mines finishing by MxSnd.
https://soundcloud.com/laurent-sevestre ... one-minute
Last edited by Laurend on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Laurent Sevestre
Online mastering
MaximalSound.com

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Phase47 wrote: 1) Remember it's the engineer and not the gear. I'd trust Greg Calbi or Ted Jensen armed only with a guitar amp and a cassette deck to do a better mastering job than 99% of the online mastering houses that have cropped up over the past few years.
Indeed! Add to this that in the end it is all completely subjective. So there are people out there who absolutely do not get along with some of the famous guys way of doing things. It's just that they have very different view on what "good" is.

Hence communication is by far the most important part of any mastering work. Good mastering engineers in general seem to have an intuitive grasp of what the client is looking for. In fact, this applies to recording and mixing as well but especially mastering that can and does provide that final "flavor" to the mix it all comes down to very subjective things.

I've ran into situations myself where I thought I've made a kick-ass master and had everything punching and kicking nicely only to be told by the client that I went in the exact opposite direction (he wanted glue and absolute control and taming of ALL transients!). I had also scooped precisely the "wrong" frequencies according to him.. so it took a lot of effort to really understand what he wanted. Once we got over that hurdle it all went very smoothly.

So once more, communication is THE key.

This is perhaps the main reason I don't really understand nor believe in "magic" automated DSP based mastering. There simply must be a human being in the other end to fully satisfy some clients. It's also quite common to develop a bond between the client and engineer, a mutual understanding of the end product which makes it easy and comfortable to do future projects together. This cuts down on time and costs due to less work needed because the clients preference is already known and the engineer is "in sync" with whatever he gets from the client.

Then again, perhaps it's possible to fine tune these automatic mastering systems for different types of clients/preferences and build a vast library of personality type? :lol:

Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle

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Laurend wrote:I've deleted my initial post by error.

Here it is with some tracks of the SOS shootout.
I've joined mines finishing by MxSnd.
https://soundcloud.com/laurent-sevestre ... ximalsound
.. well, your versions of each song are definitely the loudest. There's no question about that. :lol:

I do urge you to listen to the actual songs and see if they benefit from your process. For instance in the first song, the delicate ballad with the girl singing, your version almost completely obliterates the balance between each of the instruments and the vocalist. It just falls completely apart.. instead of becoming a harmony of many sound sources, each sound is now screaming "listen to me!!!!!" almost at an equal level. This kind of delicate song needs to be treated with a lot of respect and absolute minimal processing, in my opinion. It's also quite painfully harsh with perhaps too much top end (or caused by distortion from the limiter/clipper?).

Personally I liked number 2 on each example. Not sure if it's the same mastering house on each but each number 2 works the best here for me.

Admittedly I'm listening from my laptop with my less than ideal AKG 270S headphones (I've been getting really annoyed at them lately) but this is a rather "real world" listening environment.

Will take a closer listen to these when I get to the studio tomorrow or on Monday.

Cheers for posting!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle

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