Are you making art or doing painting by numbers?civita wrote:normal DJ standards
Is it bad to have a 24 bar phrase in deep house music?
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 21 Aug, 2011
He's making music for a specific context. He wants his music used in that context. So he wants to understand the context. That's a mature approach to his craft.
I play jazz, I also produce deep house and DJ. I don't have some attitude that DJs should deal with jazz-like arranging, because they won't bother. Nowadays DJs using digital DJing pick tracks so they can layer different tracks over top each other, creating collages and remixes on the fly. If you want to be edgy and use a different form, no one's stopping you. But you're going to narrow your market significantly if it's no fun to loop with...
Just as you don't write a 30 minute four movement concerto form for something you hope to have played at a punk show, and you don't make a 2 minute ambient intro for something you want played on pop-radio, there are norms in the deep house world too. Within the jazz world (an art music if there ever were one) there are lots of standard practices that everyone knows for the same reason.
iain
I play jazz, I also produce deep house and DJ. I don't have some attitude that DJs should deal with jazz-like arranging, because they won't bother. Nowadays DJs using digital DJing pick tracks so they can layer different tracks over top each other, creating collages and remixes on the fly. If you want to be edgy and use a different form, no one's stopping you. But you're going to narrow your market significantly if it's no fun to loop with...
Just as you don't write a 30 minute four movement concerto form for something you hope to have played at a punk show, and you don't make a 2 minute ambient intro for something you want played on pop-radio, there are norms in the deep house world too. Within the jazz world (an art music if there ever were one) there are lots of standard practices that everyone knows for the same reason.
iain
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- KVRAF
- 21348 posts since 26 Jul, 2005 from Gone
I get that it's aimed at a certain audience, but when it comes down to dictating how many bars is acceptable because of the people who play it, it seems incredibly restrictive.
Your examples that follow are much more extreme and they're all obviously no no's, but to avoid 24 bars because DJs might not like it seems incredibly restrictive.
Your examples that follow are much more extreme and they're all obviously no no's, but to avoid 24 bars because DJs might not like it seems incredibly restrictive.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 21 Aug, 2011
IMHO it's hardly restrictive at all. Compared to say the blues form, where not just length but harmonic shape is pre-determined, house is incredibly open ended. The restrictions seem restrictive to people coming from other genres perhaps, because they are *different* restrictions than you might be used to. But electronic dance music is very flexible in timbre, harmony, vocal or no vocal, instrumentation, solos or no solos, harmonic language (everything from purely contrapuntal to triadic to jazz chords), etc. The restrictions are pretty simple: solid driving quarter note pulse, offbeat eighth accents, catchy bass line, and 8 bars or 16 bar forms with a nice long pared down but rhythmically clear intro and exit (32 to 64 bars is normal). That's pretty much it! Compared to what is expected to make a song be pop, country, rock or others, you have a lot of leeway within the House genre.
If you don't want to make it predictable in harmonic form, go ahead and do whatever you want, it just won't be "DJ friendly" deep house. More power to you, but don't complain if DJs don't spin your tracks. DJing seems simple, but every DJ I know finds someway to push themselves within the medium, whether it's interesting layering, or on the fly looping, or layering 3 or 4 different tracks, etc. So if we're pushing ourselves and your odd harmonic form is more hassle than it's worth, we'll pick something else. There's too much good music out there to need to make it more difficult. For me, I'm playing the sax at the same time, I do *not* need the mix in or out to be any more complicated.
iain
If you don't want to make it predictable in harmonic form, go ahead and do whatever you want, it just won't be "DJ friendly" deep house. More power to you, but don't complain if DJs don't spin your tracks. DJing seems simple, but every DJ I know finds someway to push themselves within the medium, whether it's interesting layering, or on the fly looping, or layering 3 or 4 different tracks, etc. So if we're pushing ourselves and your odd harmonic form is more hassle than it's worth, we'll pick something else. There's too much good music out there to need to make it more difficult. For me, I'm playing the sax at the same time, I do *not* need the mix in or out to be any more complicated.
iain
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- KVRist
- 475 posts since 4 Nov, 2011 from Tleat
if it's a good tune, no good DJ will give an imperial minim of f**ks if it has an uncommon paragraph. He'll know it's there and mix accordingly. Nevertheless, if (a) the tune is shit, or (b) the DJ is shit, it won't be played. A good DJ knows his music well and doesn't play it after having listened it on youtube from the 1:00 mark.
If anything, a well pulled-off and non-standard idea will only make the tune more interesting and more danceable and listenable and driving. But it does require skill and a good ear for such things, aka practice.
If anything, a well pulled-off and non-standard idea will only make the tune more interesting and more danceable and listenable and driving. But it does require skill and a good ear for such things, aka practice.
Brzzzzzzt.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 21 Aug, 2011
How on earth would a 24 bar form make something "more danceable"? gimme a break. There are a lot of things that go into danceability, length of the form is *not* one of them. Length of various components interacting, sure, but 16 bar vs 24 bar vs 32 bar is not going to make a rat's ass of difference to danceability. Name me some DJ favourites with a 24 bar form, seriously.
I can name you ones in 12/8, that's non-standard and can be super cool. You can use african drum patterns over 12/8 to great effect. Leftfield and Hardfloor and even DeadMau5 have all done wicked 12/8 tunes. Can't think of any with a 24 bar form. Also can't think of any advantage to it.
the jazz standard "West Coast Blues" is arguable a 24 bar form. "Bluesette" I think too. That's all I can think of and I've played a awful lot of tunes. And most players would say that both the above should have just been notated as a 6/8 blues instead of 3/4 double-blues.
There is an all-too common condescending attitude among producers who don't dj to DJs. Don't fall into that trap, it's worth spinning even only at open deck nights to get a better understanding of it. I resisted for years preferring to spend money on synths, but now that I'm DJing, I wish I'd done it ages ago, would have been way better for my understanding of the music. Remember, they don't play your whole song. If you're hoping to have DJs spin your stuff, then the DJ mix is a tool for a collaboration, that's it. You can always do you "listening mix" too, the Pet Shop Boys were masters of this on their old EPs. But the DJ mix is not supposed to sound "done" by itself, it's a piece for a puzzle that gets assembled later when you're not there. If you're not into that whole scene, then don't put out DJ mixes!
iain
(monthly resident at Ginger 62 in Vancouver BC)
I can name you ones in 12/8, that's non-standard and can be super cool. You can use african drum patterns over 12/8 to great effect. Leftfield and Hardfloor and even DeadMau5 have all done wicked 12/8 tunes. Can't think of any with a 24 bar form. Also can't think of any advantage to it.
the jazz standard "West Coast Blues" is arguable a 24 bar form. "Bluesette" I think too. That's all I can think of and I've played a awful lot of tunes. And most players would say that both the above should have just been notated as a 6/8 blues instead of 3/4 double-blues.
There is an all-too common condescending attitude among producers who don't dj to DJs. Don't fall into that trap, it's worth spinning even only at open deck nights to get a better understanding of it. I resisted for years preferring to spend money on synths, but now that I'm DJing, I wish I'd done it ages ago, would have been way better for my understanding of the music. Remember, they don't play your whole song. If you're hoping to have DJs spin your stuff, then the DJ mix is a tool for a collaboration, that's it. You can always do you "listening mix" too, the Pet Shop Boys were masters of this on their old EPs. But the DJ mix is not supposed to sound "done" by itself, it's a piece for a puzzle that gets assembled later when you're not there. If you're not into that whole scene, then don't put out DJ mixes!
iain
(monthly resident at Ginger 62 in Vancouver BC)
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- KVRAF
- 14150 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
People - especially young drunk/drugged dancers - will get bored.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 21 Aug, 2011
hahaha nice.
your making complex deep house-
- KVRer
- 9 posts since 26 Sep, 2013
Depends if you want to intentionally mess with them haha. I'm sure there's other 24 bar tracks taht need your song to mix with!civita wrote:I know many say "do whatever sounds right", and I agree, but I also want to have my song be mixable by normal DJ standards. So is a 24 bar phrase uncommon / not practical for house music?
Thanks!
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