Is Boom Bap legal?

[Karma_tba]

The only time legal action will be taken is when $$$$ are being made! BIG$$$$!! The purveyors of these sample packs know that their customers ain't stacking cheddar using their samples. The copyright owners know that the money being made off of the likes of "Boom Bap" is minimal at best. They still have the option to sue on the outside chance that "Johnnie BeatBoi" comes up with a hit. That chance is as fat as their beats.

[loachm]

If the sample is short enough, by German law it is legal AFAIK.

...I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that equation. Like you I have no actual proof, but from memory I recall that a recording has a number of copyrights - composition, performance and production - or even sound design. These rights can be transferred, i.e. from the performer to the producer. Unless you aren't creating the sounds yourself or pay for the respective rights you're violating the copyright. AFAIK in Germany you might get away with some forms of sampling as a creation needs to pass a certain threshold to be protected by law ("Schöpfungshöhe" - "level of creation") - but this is arguable and it does not automatically mean that something is legal. I could maybe get away with taking a 200ms snare of James Brown's Funky Drummer. I probably wouldn't violate composition copyright and production or performing copyrights would be arguable, but at how many ms would I get sued? And I don't think the claim "everything under 1s is legal" is true either...

And personally, I wouldn't buy any of these sample packs - I listen to a lot of Loopmasters packs and I can always spot a number of sample shots from old breakbeats. Same for some samples in the Battery, Kontakt or Maschine factory library or some Maschine expansions (for instance "Golden Kingdom - Track 8, Kit Medley 2 - that's "The Cold Grits - It's your thing" right at the beginning). I trust NI that they cleared these samples, I'm almost certain Loopmasters doesn't and I'm sure due to the strict laws in the US every sampled break in Spectrasonics Stylus has been cleared. But sample packs with that "authentic sound" from lesser known companies - no way...

Anyway, for your amusement...

@5:40m

[teempee]

I trust NI that they cleared these samples

I'm pretty sure no one's ever done this, it would simply be too expensive and take too much time. And I mean just the overhead, not the actual compensation for the copyright holders. Even if there were no overhead, the figures couldn't possibly be more than two-digit, three-digit at most per sample. Most sample packs probably generate less than $100 per sample.

[ShawnG]

while it would be nice if the legalities of copyright were as black and white as some people seem to believe (on both sides of the argument) the fact is that they aren't. this is a murky, murky subject. but essentially, even taking the hardest line possible, its hard to see how crate digging, IF the result is one shots and NOT loops is anything other than completely legal. In order for a copyright claim to be won successfully, the sample must be recognizable, unaltered, and musically significant, and the claimant would have to prove harm. Its hard to see how a single snare hit, devoid of any reference to the song it was taken from would be any of those things. and a simple reprocessing of the hit would render the sample unrecognizable.

The other thing is that the value of these samples is not that they are drum hits, since that would be easy, just set up a kit and record some samples, way easier than going through tons of old vinyl looking for naked drum passages. the value of these samples is that they are taken from moldy old vinyl that has tons of "character". The vinyl crackles that form the "authenticity" of the sample are a part of the specific vinyl record they are taken from, and not part of the original artists composition or recording.

Loops are a different thing, since they are recognizable, and contain the drummer's timing, groove, and a musical idea, but even then, if you take a loop and rex it up and change all of that, unless that drummer has a really unique and recognizable sound, thats not a violation either. Now for the record, I'm a rock guy, and hardly ever use any looped samples in my music, so I'm not trying to defend my home turf, all music is derivative in some way. the trick is to borrow and make something your own style, not to steal it whole cloth and claim it for your own.

[arkmabat]

I guess it's a combination of the sample being recognizable, being for a commercial purpose, how old the sampled album is, and how big the company is who used it? Haha.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgep ... sion_Films

"Essentially, N.W.A. sampled a two-second guitar chord from Funkadelic's tune, lowered the pitch and looped it five times in their song. This was all done without Funkadelic's permission and with no compensation paid to Bridgeport Music"

[arkmabat]

Wait so... Where is this large body of freebies?

"There is a large body of pre-1971 sound recordings that is not protected and is up for grabs as far as sampling is concerned. Additionally, just as many artists and companies choose to sample and take their chances, it is likely that will continue to be the case."

[arkmabat]

Apparently pre-1972 recordings are not covered by US federal copyright law. Only per state which they were recorded in. So old vinyls are probably actually moderately safe to sample. A judge from the federal court even said so, given that was around a decade ago. I'd love more info on this if anybody knows anything.

[Norbz]

I'm sure most have seen the AmenBrotherBreak doc? Enlightening for those that haven't.



EDIT: Just found this - really cool of the people to help out. http://www.gofundme.com/amenbrother

[Aloysius]

So for arguments sake:

(a) ... assuming it's not illegal to steal samples from old records and sell them, can we ... steal samples from this product and sell them, use them, whatever?
(b) If even the people who made the records are unable to copyright their own material, how can this '3rd party company' claim that ... "All Sounds and Samples are licensed as Royalty-Free for you to use in your commercial productions or even for DJ/Remix purposes."?

[ShawnG]

So for arguments sake:

(a) ... assuming it's not illegal to steal samples from old records and sell them, can we ... steal samples from this product and sell them, use them, whatever?
(b) If even the people who made the records are unable to copyright their own material, how can this '3rd party company' claim that ... "All Sounds and Samples are licensed as Royalty-Free for you to use in your commercial productions or even for DJ/Remix purposes."?

So understanding that im not a lawyer, but...

A. You could reprocess the hits sothat they are wholly different sounding, make rhythmic loops out of the hits, etc.. And sell them. You couldnt take the entirety of this company's products and repackage it with your name on it and sell the hits as they are.
B. The people who made the original recordings have their copyright. (As long as some record company guy didnt steal it to begin with) on the music itself. You cant copyright a Single snare hit tho, unless there is something incredibly unique about how you hit the drum that one time that became an essential and inseperable part of the piece of music as a whole. When these guys sampled their grungy old vinyl record with the vinyl pops that were not part of the recording, and then throw it through their dusty old low bitrate akai sampler from 1992, and an eq and a compressor, that sample is then theirs, and they can grant licenses for its use.

[drunken jesus]

I think recreating "vinylish" samples for "legal reasons" is the silliest way of wasting resources, but if you'd rather go that route then there's a lot to choose from.

Imo trying to make something worthwhile that sounds good mixed together with random one shots would be a lot more hassle than trying to recreate some vinylish sounds to chop or just sampling something yourself since you could use pieces that actually fit together.

Digging, recording and processing samples takes a lot of work and the records and necessary equipment cost money too. For the copyright holder there's no marginal cost at all. Licensing hundreds of samples for a £60 sample pack isn't feasible in real life, but let's say that it was an easy automated process. What do you think would be a fair split between the copyright holder and the sample pack producer, so that the latter wouldn't count as a shady sleazeball?

You're assuming a lot of effort from people doing something dubious, that's like assuming fenced electronics get tested to make sure they work. Likely all these people are doing is downloading vinyl rips and chopping the samples out and normalizing them. At the rate some of these small "companies" pump out sample packs its obvious theirs a lot of shortcuts being taken and the mediocre products probably sour the market for companies actually creating original samples. Fair split? I dunno that'd be up to the sample pack producers and the IP holders. People who put things like this out remind me of people who sell packages of freeware software or burnt DVDs/games sure theirs work involved, but they're mainly just taking somebody elses shit and selling it.

[loachm]

Digging, recording and processing samples takes a lot of work and the records and necessary equipment cost money too. For the copyright holder there's no marginal cost at all. Licensing hundreds of samples for a £60 sample pack isn't feasible in real life, but let's say that it was an easy automated process. What do you think would be a fair split between the copyright holder and the sample pack producer, so that the latter wouldn't count as a shady sleazeball?

...I think, there is no entitlement for having a fair split. It costs whatever the copyright holder demands, if he or she allows it at all - because it's the copyright holder's right. And the right thing to do is to respect that even if we find it arrogant, morally wrong or whatever. Because that's how our culture works and that's how we'd like our rights to be respected, even in situations when the person in front of us doesn't agree. And the sample producer will always count as a shady sleazeball, if he hasn't come to an agreement with the copyright holder and sh#ts on his rights instead.

I hope everyone doesn't mind an anecdote. Teempee said, digging, recording and processing samples takes a lot of work and the records and necessary equipment cost money, too. That's right - it's one of my hobbies and I have been doing this for almost 20 years. Once I have violated copyright laws and posted hundreds of original breakbeats from recordings I bought and collected over the years. I sampled them and sliced them with Recycle and posted them for free (for a limited time because that was what I thought would be barely OK). I even included informations on which record the respective break could be found and encouraged people to do a bit of digging on their own. I thought and think it is legally wrong, but I did for some sort of cultural/encyclopaedic reasons and to contribute something to the community. It ended with a sample pack producer collecting all those samples and posting them on his website. I wasn't fond of that, but I didn't mind particularly either. For some years he referred to me (and others), recently he has stopped that - I don't mind it either way and I can't nor want to do anything about it, but if I even don't condone what I had done, anyone can imagine what I think about these practices, if one asks me.

Sorry for the great detail, but the point is this - I know some sample pack producer have used these samples for creating commercial packs, some even sold them unaltered as a collection. Some producers used other collections for their packs or bought records and sampled on their own. It doesn't matter - it is all wrong!! It is illegal to create commercial products from such sources. It is lazy and stupid to buy such products, if such sources are available on the net for free. Even if someone isn't in the position to do some crate-digging, a bit of digging around the internet can be expected (especially in a field where people are bragging about their expertise and craftmanship). People should research and sample on their own. Something like whosampled.com is a great resource for that, but the best is still listening to music.

Likely all these people are doing is downloading vinyl rips and chopping the samples out and normalizing them. At the rate some of these small "companies" pump out sample packs its obvious theirs a lot of shortcuts being taken and the mediocre products probably sour the market for companies actually creating original samples. Fair split? I dunno that'd be up to the sample pack producers and the IP holders. People who put things like this out remind me of people who sell packages of freeware software or burnt DVDs/games sure theirs work involved, but they're mainly just taking somebody elses shit and selling it.

You cant copyright a Single snare hit tho, unless there is something incredibly unique about how you hit the drum that one time that became an essential and inseperable part of the piece of music as a whole. When these guys sampled their grungy old vinyl record with the vinyl pops that were not part of the recording, and then throw it through their dusty old low bitrate akai sampler from 1992, and an eq and a compressor, that sample is then theirs, and they can grant licenses for its use.

...I'm sorry, that is wrong. You can't grant a licence for something that you don't own. You might get away with it, but that is something different...

[V0RT3X]

Then there's melodyne..

[cron]

The legal footing you're on with sampling is entirely inversely proportional to how much money there is to be made by going after you. If you're broke, nobody will give a shit. Some kid pressing up 500 copies of an unauthorised Kate Bush remix that samples the entire vocal will be ignored, whereas Robin Thicke will be sued for millions for making a track that contains no samples but sounds a little bit like a Marvin Gaye tune.

I've got a fair few records which contained a sample on the (limited press) vinyl version which was removed for the digital download version. Makes sense. If you've got no money, nobody's going to drag you through court to try and get compensation for using the sample on the vinyl version. They can't send a generic cease and desist once the first and only vinyl run has already gone out to the shops, but they might send a cease and desist to stop you selling the download version.

Basically, sample away! The police aren't going to show up to your house because you've committed a crime against music. Just stick to small independent labels and don't get rich...

[Halma]

For those who are interested in one of the most prominent cases in Germany search for "Kraftwerk vs Moses Pelham". This was the last really big decision overhere in Germany within the last years.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/d ... pling-case